Okehampton-Tavistock. Discussion on reopening and potential use as a diversionary route

[whole diary]

[vacman]

I believe the loading gauge in Ireland and Northern Ireland is the same as mainland UK^▸ (United Kingdom), if you look at Irish stock the bogies sometimes stick out further than the side of the train.

[WSW Frome]

Just to add a small contribution. The Irish Track gauge of 5ft 3in was determined by a Parliamentary Committee deliberating in about 1850 (I have not checked the date). This was of course when Ireland was one nation/country/island and could be considered as part of GB^▸ (Great Britain)/UK^▸ (United Kingdom). Presumably they determined that this gauge was more efficient and allowed higher speed etc. and laid down for all "main" Irish routes. Interesting then that nothing much was ever made of this with no doubt low maximum and average speeds applying all over Ireland until quite recent times.

Parts of Irish Rail still hark back to 1850. For example try a journey from Limerick Junction to Waterford (and formerly Rosslare) which will take you back a bit. I did this in 2009. Arrangements at Limerick Junction and along the route would bring back memories of places like Templecombe or Dorchester South, in times gone by. Other parts much more up to date. 

[The SprinterMeister]

Not really because the units are built to UK^▸ (United Kingdom) loading gauge, being basically 455 EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) upper parts mounted on Mk1 underframes. Powered by EE / GEC 4SRKT engines and EE538 traction motors recovered from earlier units. And there are no side buffers to move / remount. If you can find some Mk1 EMU Mk6 (resusing motors and gearssets from existing power bogies) and B5T bogies, remount and shorten the footboards that's about the size of it. It may even be possible to modify the existing bogies, nothing that Pullman Rail Cardiff  or Knights Rail at Eastleigh couldn't reasonably do, and probably cheaper to operate than a 31 and hauled stock.

I was referring to the track gauge not the loading gauge which is different in Northern Ireland.  As for loading gauge, you say the units were built to UK loading gauge but if this gauge officially exists then it would also have to be the loading gauge for Northern Ireland as Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

My comments adequately address the track gauge isses. Either rebogie them or modify the existing Mk6 power bogies using new axles and shorterned crossmembers on the bogie frames.

The 450's are actually narrower than BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) 150's if the data plates on the vehicle ends are anything to go by. I have the actual NIR tender document for them somewhere. BREL^▸ (British Rail Engineering Ltd) simply supplied BR loading gauge coaches to NIR / CIE^» (Coras Iompair Eireann - Holding company for Irish transport companies - about) / Iarnrod Ireann with wider footboards to bridge the gap. NIR / CIE lines being built to a larger loading gauge than the UK.

[Zoe]

NIR / CIE^» (Coras Iompair Eireann - Holding company for Irish transport companies - about) lines being built to a larger loading gauge than the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

Northern Ireland can't have been built to a larger loading gauge than the UK as Northern Ireland is in the UK.  It must be the case that different loading gauges were used within the UK.

[The SprinterMeister]

NIR / CIE^» (Coras Iompair Eireann - Holding company for Irish transport companies - about) lines being built to a larger loading gauge than the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

Northern Ireland can't have been built to a larger loading gauge than the UK as Northern Ireland is in the UK.  It must be the case that different loading gauges were used within the UK.

The railways in Northern Ireland were built to a larger loading gauge as the track gauge was eventually standardised at 5'3" (after a brief flirtation with 6'2" gauge on one of the early routes South of Belfast). If what your trying to assert is correct the railways in Ireland would have been compelled to have been built to 4' 8.5" which clearly wasn't the case.

Photographs exist of CIE Cravens coaches coupled to former BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) BSK^▸ (Brake Standard Corridor (carriage))'s converted to steam heating vans in the 1970's the difference in loading gauge is very obvious. If you look at pictures of Iarnrod Eireann / NIR 201 class GM's coupled to Mk3 coaches the difference in the loading gauge is also very obvious.

The Great Central Railway (as was) was built to Berne / UIC loading gauge rather than the current British standard.  The truth is that BR Mk1's were built to a loading gauge that allowed them to run over most routes, even then there were some lines from which they were barred such as the Culm Valley and Carlisle to Maryport.

[Zoe]

If what your trying to assert is correct the railways in Ireland would have been compelled to have been built to 4' 8.5" which clearly wasn't the case.

No, what I'm saying is that there wasn't a UK^▸ (United Kingdom) gauge as if there was then Northern Ireland should breen required to use it.  The standard gauge was only used in Great Britain and not all of the UK.

[The SprinterMeister]

If what your trying to assert is correct the railways in Ireland would have been compelled to have been built to 4' 8.5" which clearly wasn't the case.

No, what I'm saying is that there wasn't a UK^▸ (United Kingdom) gauge as if there was then Northern Ireland should breen required to use it.  The standard gauge was only used in Great Britain and not all of the UK.

It would have made no difference as matters such as the overall size of the rolling stock / loading gauge were matters for each individual railway to determine provided they were to a minimum standard. The Irish Railways obviously thought slightly bigger was better, however when BREL^▸ (British Rail Engineering Ltd) supplied new and rebuilt stock to CIE^» (Coras Iompair Eireann - Holding company for Irish transport companies - about) / NIR they didn't offer vehicles modified to take account of the larger permisable loading gauge.

[The SprinterMeister]

AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know)

The Loading Gauge in Ireland was constrained by the pioneer Dublin and Kingstown Railway built in 1834 and laid to the Stephenson track gauge of 4' 8 1/2".

This meant that the rolling stock was constructed to the then standard British loading gauge. As the DKR was built through the populated part of the City, subsequent widening to 5' 3" was unable to take advantage of the broader tracks, loading gauge wise, as the line's structure could not be altered without immense cost and disruption.  This resulted in the use of vehicles that meet the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) loading gauge, albeit with wider bogies.

I am though, unsure as to the dimensions of the newer DART and IE stock.

I think you'll find that CIE^» (Coras Iompair Eireann - Holding company for Irish transport companies - about) / IR installed slab track on that bit to allow full IR loading gauge sized vehicles to pass through and past each other there without restriction. The CIE 'Cravens' coaches were slightly but significantly higher and wider than the BR Mk1 of the same period to take advantage of the loading gauge and they ran through that bit without problems. Iarnrod Eireann 201 class GM's can also run I believe so there cannot be a problem these days.

Suffice to say ex NIR 450's should be able to run on the Dartmoor Railway if you convert them to Standard track gauge and cut the footsteps back a bit....

[Maxwell P]

AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know)

The Loading Gauge in Ireland was constrained by the pioneer Dublin and Kingstown Railway built in 1834 and laid to the Stephenson track gauge of 4' 8 1/2".

This meant that the rolling stock was constructed to the then standard British loading gauge. As the DKR was built through the populated part of the City, subsequent widening to 5' 3" was unable to take advantage of the broader tracks, loading gauge wise, as the line's structure could not be altered without immense cost and disruption.  This resulted in the use of vehicles that meet the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) loading gauge, albeit with wider bogies.

I am though, unsure as to the dimensions of the newer DART and IE stock.

I think you'll find that CIE^» (Coras Iompair Eireann - Holding company for Irish transport companies - about) / IR installed slab track on that bit to allow full IR loading gauge sized vehicles to pass through and past each other there without restriction. The CIE 'Cravens' coaches were slightly but significantly higher and wider than the BR Mk1 of the same period to take advantage of the loading gauge and they ran through that bit without problems. Iarnrod Eireann 201 class GM's can also run I believe so there cannot be a problem these days.

Suffice to say ex NIR 450's should be able to run on the Dartmoor Railway if you convert them to Standard track gauge and cut the footsteps back a bit....

Interesting!  Could they then, run Berne gauge kit in Eire?  If so, it begs the question as to why CIE bought Mk3s off the shelf.
Do you happen to know the dimensions of the Irish loading gauge viz the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) standard?

[Zoe]

Do you happen to know the dimensions of the Irish loading gauge viz the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) standard?

It isn't a standard loading gauge in the UK though as Great Britain and Northern Ireland have different loading gauges.

[Maxwell P]

Do you happen to know the dimensions of the Irish loading gauge viz the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) standard?

It isn't a standard loading gauge in the UK though as Great Britain and Northern Ireland have different loading gauges.

No problem with that, I should have written Mainland Britain.

[The SprinterMeister]

Do you happen to know the dimensions of the Irish loading gauge viz the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) standard?

It isn't a standard loading gauge in the UK though as Great Britain and Northern Ireland have different loading gauges.

Bit of Youtube for which demonstrates the slight but significant difference in CIE^» (Coras Iompair Eireann - Holding company for Irish transport companies - about) / Iarnrod Eireann loading gauge stock and BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) loading gauge stock. The steam generator van is converted from a former BR BSK^▸ (Brake Standard Corridor (carriage)) coach. And its a little bit of History as the Waterford line is closed, as is th

No problem with that, I should have written Mainland Britain.

Not sure, I shall see what I can find out. Basically I don't think Berne / UIC gauge kit will quite fit within the Irish kinematic envelope although having said that the BREL^▸ (British Rail Engineering Ltd) 'international train' demonstrator set based on Mk3 coach technology (built to a larger loading gauge than could be used on BR) did get exported to Iarnrod Eireann. Not that long since finished running with them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb6LCyKVrhk

Bit of Youtube for you which demonstrates the slight but significant difference in CIE / Iarnrod Eireann loading gauge stock and BR loading gauge stock. The steam generator van is converted from a former BR BSK coach. And its a little bit of History as the Waterford line is closed, as is that incarnation of Rosslare Europort station. The rolling stock has gone too. Why can't we have local trains like this?
 

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the Western Morning News:

Moving station could reverse town's decline

Plans for a new station, which could mean a regular rail link between Exeter and Okehampton, are expected to win support from the county council.

Opportunity Okehampton is an ambitious scheme designed to reverse the decline of the town, which has been particularly badly hit by the recession, with the closure of several high-profile businesses. West Devon Borough Council is investigating a series of developments with the aim of creating employment and promoting growth and sustainable transport.

A proposal to relocate the town's railway station to a more convenient location is hoped to generate support for a case for a regular commuter service between Exeter and Okehampton, to expand on the current Sunday summer service.

On Wednesday, Devon County Council's cabinet will be invited to support a plan for a small station, along with a car park and shared footpath and cycleway. A report concludes that funding may be hard, but says opportunities may be presented by the outcome of the Local Sustainable Transport Fund bid, which seeks to expand access to Dartmoor and Exmoor, and by the re-tendering of the Great Western rail franchise.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

I wonder if this means that bars have abandoned the idea of an open access route, I should know however I have not been upto okehampton in quite a while and things have gone quiet

[FlyingDutchman]

I guess the station site will be on the B3260 (Exeter Road) and Fatherford Rd