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Author Topic: Okehampton-Tavistock. Discussion on reopening and potential use as a diversionary route  (Read 268778 times)
Umberleigh
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« Reply #405 on: February 09, 2014, 13:52:26 »

So one year after closing the line, the first rail replacement busses made an appearance? Take a bow, Dr Beeching.

The Teign Valley Line must have been a delightful route, but sadly development in Exeter and road schemes have surely made this a non-option. If you are going to have to start building new bits, then you may as well go the whole hog and build the DAL.

The Okehampton route is also devoid of development in comparison, is well engineered and could be fast. The assertion that Meldon viaduct is unsound has been thrown wide open, and starting too look like more dirty tactics by Beeching's crew. Also, we are talking a multi-million pound reopening, not a dozen volunteers with some donated sleepers and cast-off rail (no offence, preservationists!).

But, the Okehampton route would be expensive to maintain, and almost certainly be a burden on the taxpayer. It was and would be vulnerable to heavy snow: imagine the headlines if the new ^100 Million + link is closed the very first time it is needed as a diversionary route.

However, if and when Tavistock is a roaring success as it undoubtedly will be, then I can at least foresee Okehampton getting its services back. But I'm still dubious there would be sufficient traffic between the two to make a restored link viable, although I would be ecstatic to be proven wrong!

For the people of Starcross, Dawlish and Teignmouth to lose their rail link would be a tragedy, however the needs of an entire County and the largest city west of Bristol are greater. If one section of the sea wall can collapse, what about the rest? Just how sound is it after decades of battering by the sea? NR» (Network Rail - home page) certainly didn't see this coming. Difficult decisions will need to be made.

Teignmouth itself could have a shuttle service to Newton Abbot, especially given that the DAL would knock a few minutes off of the journey times compensate. Starcross is tiny and has a good bus service to Exeter (or even to a new station at Exminster). That just leaves Dawlish: I don't need to give you a list of the stations that lose their services during disruptions so that Dawlish can have an hourly service. As I said, difficult decisions.

If the Dawlish Avoiding Line were to be built then it throws into question the cost of maintaining a rail link to one small village and a minor town. Remember, over 90% of holidaymakers don't arrive by train. If disruption on this scale is to become a regular occurrence, then abandoning Dawlish would pay for the DAL in perhaps a decade or two.

*ducks for cover*
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Umberleigh
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« Reply #406 on: February 09, 2014, 14:34:04 »

BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) piece that is actually more or less factually accurate for a change:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26068375
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #407 on: February 09, 2014, 14:54:38 »

So one year after closing the line, the first rail replacement busses made an appearance? Take a bow, Dr Beeching.

Given the way the wind was blowing at the time, Mrs Castle was right to shut the LSWR (London South Western Railway) route. There was no possibility of keeping both routes open in that climate, and the only place on the relevant section of the LSWR to completely lose its service was Tavistock (with a current population of just over 11,000). Over 100,000 would have lost their service if they'd shut the GW (Great Western) route.

If the Dawlish Avoiding Line were to be built then it throws into question the cost of maintaining a rail link to one small village and a minor town. Remember, over 90% of holidaymakers don't arrive by train. If disruption on this scale is to become a regular occurrence, then abandoning Dawlish would pay for the DAL in perhaps a decade or two.

*ducks for cover*

Dawlish and Teignmouth put together have a population of around 30,000. That's quite a lot of people to wipe off the rail map.
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ellendune
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« Reply #408 on: February 09, 2014, 15:29:34 »

If the Dawlish Avoiding Line were to be built then it throws into question the cost of maintaining a rail link to one small village and a minor town. Remember, over 90% of holidaymakers don't arrive by train. If disruption on this scale is to become a regular occurrence, then abandoning Dawlish would pay for the DAL in perhaps a decade or two.

Dawlish and Teignmouth put together have a population of around 30,000. That's quite a lot of people to wipe off the rail map.

A Dawlish branch from Newton Abbot would reduce the cost and keep them with some connection.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #409 on: February 09, 2014, 15:55:06 »


A Dawlish branch from Newton Abbot would reduce the cost and keep them with some connection.

Well true; you could save even more by cutting it back to Teignmouth; more still by running a bus. To me that sounds a bit like Beeching-think.
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« Reply #410 on: February 09, 2014, 16:25:56 »

Light relief for a moment in this depressing debate - all of this leads me to remember my childhood days. Back in the late 1950s, when I were a young nipper, my mother used to take me down to Torquay in the summer on the Torbay Express - bound for Kingswear then - and King or Castle hauled. I well remember stopping at Dawlish on a hot sunny day and leaning out of the window to see the fireman shovelling furiously. A fast start with plenty of smoke and hot cinders would clear the beach of sunbathers in seconds flat, much to the merriment of the train crew. Grin
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Umberleigh
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« Reply #411 on: February 09, 2014, 16:26:53 »

So one year after closing the line, the first rail replacement busses made an appearance? Take a bow, Dr Beeching.

Given the way the wind was blowing at the time, Mrs Castle was right to shut the LSWR (London South Western Railway) route. There was no possibility of keeping both routes open in that climate, and the only place on the relevant section of the LSWR to completely lose its service was Tavistock (with a current population of just over 11,000). Over 100,000 would have lost their service if they'd shut the GW (Great Western) route.

If the Dawlish Avoiding Line were to be built then it throws into question the cost of maintaining a rail link to one small village and a minor town. Remember, over 90% of holidaymakers don't arrive by train. If disruption on this scale is to become a regular occurrence, then abandoning Dawlish would pay for the DAL in perhaps a decade or two.

*ducks for cover*

Dawlish and Teignmouth put together have a population of around 30,000. That's quite a lot of people to wipe off the rail map.

My proposal was to retain a shuttle service between Teignmouth and Newton Abbot, so only Dawlish would lose out.

I would very much hope this would never happen, however some experts are now predicting that the sea will win this battle (see above). If that is the case, then we need to look at the next best options
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TonyK
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« Reply #412 on: February 09, 2014, 22:54:41 »

Such experts are defeatist, and fail to see anything above the "small picture". Dawlish needs a lot of stone, a few thousand tonnes thereof, plus fixity (thank you RedSquirrel) solution to the ballast. Penzance has a lot of big rocks protecting the foreshore, some of which I slept on during my hippy days, thankfully without the weather intruding too much. Dawlish may need similar, but the sea may be too deep.

To my mind, the Dawlish sea wall and railway should be re-instated without delay as an emergency measure. An alternative route, be it Okehampton to Tavvy or the other inland route via Newton Abbot should be researched with equal urgency. And built.
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paul7575
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« Reply #413 on: February 10, 2014, 08:59:09 »

To my mind, the Dawlish sea wall and railway should be re-instated without delay as an emergency measure...

Is anyone, anywhere, suggesting it won't or can't be rebuilt to the condition it was in, or even better?   

I believe that the area breached was a predictably weak spot, and if it had been built to the same standards as most of the rest of the wall, with the path raised up alongside it rather than at the lower level, trains would be running now.

Some other posts have suggested it be made single track to allow for strengthening, and as someone else replied, the immediately obvious way of strengthening the weak section is to work on the outside.

In any case, it seems clear from the various photos that the area between the inner and outer walls had no structural strength - there may be far better engineering solutions, perhaps involving re-enforced concrete within the walls.

Paul
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eightf48544
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« Reply #414 on: February 10, 2014, 10:27:18 »

To my mind, the Dawlish sea wall and railway should be re-instated without delay as an emergency measure...

Agreed!
there may be far better engineering solutions, perhaps involving re-enforced concrete within the walls.

Paul

Massed re-enforced concrete does seem to have remarkable strength. Look at the bunkers on the Atlantic wall and they are still trying to demolish the old Flak Towers in Vienna. The problem seems to be how do you anchor the slab to prevent the sea from washing away the material all around and leaving it  unsupported.
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« Reply #415 on: February 10, 2014, 11:32:40 »

To me, it seems that the way to proceed should be:
1) repair the wall & strengthen further if possible =>
2) reinstate Okehampton-Tavistock-Bere Alston, not just to provide a diversionary route when needed but also to reconnect Okehampton and Tavistock to the network and provide a railhead for North Cornwall & West Devon. =>
3) Plan for a Dawlish Avoiding Line to ensure that if/when the sea wall gives up the ghost, the South Devon & Torbay route is retained as well. 
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eightf48544
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« Reply #416 on: February 10, 2014, 12:54:35 »

To me, it seems that the way to proceed should be:
1) repair the wall & strengthen further if possible =>
2) reinstate Okehampton-Tavistock-Bere Alston, not just to provide a diversionary route when needed but also to reconnect Okehampton and Tavistock to the network and provide a railhead for North Cornwall & West Devon. =>
3) Plan for a Dawlish Avoiding Line to ensure that if/when the sea wall gives up the ghost, the South Devon & Torbay route is retained as well. 

Agree 100% with the priviso that:

Exeter Plymouth via Okehampton to be double track 90 mph.
Avoiding line to be double track and 125 mph.
In addition redouble Castle Cary to Pinhoe throughout to provide Somerset levels avoiding route.
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trainbuff
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« Reply #417 on: February 10, 2014, 15:01:56 »

To me, it seems that the way to proceed should be:
1) repair the wall & strengthen further if possible =>
2) reinstate Okehampton-Tavistock-Bere Alston, not just to provide a diversionary route when needed but also to reconnect Okehampton and Tavistock to the network and provide a railhead for North Cornwall & West Devon. =>
3) Plan for a Dawlish Avoiding Line to ensure that if/when the sea wall gives up the ghost, the South Devon & Torbay route is retained as well. 

Agree 100% with the priviso that:

Exeter Plymouth via Okehampton to be double track 90 mph.
Avoiding line to be double track and 125 mph.
In addition redouble Castle Cary to Pinhoe throughout to provide Somerset levels avoiding route.


Here here. The only reasonable solution! Both short, medium and long term. Lets just hope the same will, and money,  exists in a few months when the Dawlish line is reopened
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TonyK
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« Reply #418 on: February 10, 2014, 18:12:55 »

Network Rail's commitment to the Dawlish line is reassuring. That news about the Okehampton route being the only other game in town seems a little hurried, so must have been under consideration for a while. "We sold the trackbed" isn't much of an excuse - they must have got money for it, although probably a fraction of what will be needed to buy it back. There are council offices built over part of the route, but given Devon County Council's and the local district council's enthusiasm for the line, that should not get in the way. There is some detail, a little dated now, here.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #419 on: February 11, 2014, 16:30:00 »

To me, it seems that the way to proceed should be:
1) repair the wall & strengthen further if possible =>
2) reinstate Okehampton-Tavistock-Bere Alston, not just to provide a diversionary route when needed but also to reconnect Okehampton and Tavistock to the network and provide a railhead for North Cornwall & West Devon. =>
3) Plan for a Dawlish Avoiding Line to ensure that if/when the sea wall gives up the ghost, the South Devon & Torbay route is retained as well. 

All for 500,000 people? Hmmm. Maybe a selection of 2 out of 3. Unless they can access EU» (European Union - about) money for the other
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