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Author Topic: Report - packed public transport and road in London. How are GWR trains?  (Read 3606 times)
didcotdean
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2020, 07:05:03 pm »

Hence the old joke which asked why the extra carriages couldn't have been added to the front rather than the back.
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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2020, 07:49:14 pm »



Once upon a time, many years ago .... it did happen.   One of the big concerns with the "10 car scheme" replacing 8 car trains with 10 car ones to places like Dartford and Sevenoaks was that it wasn't adding 25% capacity because the country end of the train was always much quieter.  And, yes, there were those of us who used to travel in the back of the train in the morning and the front in the evening, and wish that 10 car trains ran into Holborn Viaduct toot for some reason they never did.

Fascinating. The large rail terminus has never really been built for everyday journeys. London Waterloo is probably the one which handles everyday best. Germany has replaced many of it's termini, largely to benefit through running I guess, but with the added bonus of better crowd control.
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eightonedee
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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2020, 10:15:33 pm »

One thing (which applies to Waterloo as much as the other London termini) which mitigates against the ability to maintain social distancing is the universal use of ticket barrier gates. Until this crisis is safely past, surely they should be left open so everyone can get to the platform without queues to get through the gates. The potential loss of revenue is unlikely to be great in the context of other factors depressing it at present.
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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2020, 07:08:09 am »

Of course the reverse happens on Ascot racing days from Reading. Too far to walk down the train in heels.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2020, 07:23:03 am »

RMT now threatening strike action - oh no we aren't - oh yes they are!  Roll Eyes

https://twitter.com/i/status/1260464900624863232
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grahame
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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2020, 02:06:57 pm »



Once upon a time, many years ago .... it did happen.   One of the big concerns with the "10 car scheme" replacing 8 car trains with 10 car ones to places like Dartford and Sevenoaks was that it wasn't adding 25% capacity because the country end of the train was always much quieter.  And, yes, there were those of us who used to travel in the back of the train in the morning and the front in the evening, and wish that 10 car trains ran into Holborn Viaduct toot for some reason they never did.

Fascinating. The large rail terminus has never really been built for everyday journeys. London Waterloo is probably the one which handles everyday best. Germany has replaced many of it's termini, largely to benefit through running I guess, but with the added bonus of better crowd control.

London Termini date from the early days of railways and a much smaller built up area - for the most part they're in a ring around London, and they were well suited in early days for relatively long distance trains that would come into "town" and turn around.

But is "Town" the City of London, or the West End?  The South Eastern Railway came in through London Bridge to Cannon Street in the City, where trains reversed and travelled via Waterloo.  The London, Chatham and Dover Railway took a different approach, with trains dividing at Herne Hill and a portion to each of The City (Holborn Viaduct Station) and The West End (Victoria Station).  Net result - six very short platforms at Holborn Viaduct.

With changing metrics, both City stations (Cannon Street and Holborn Viaduct) became very much commuter stations with services concentrated in the peak hours, and electric trains came quite early.  Holborn Viaduct, on a tight site, was particularly limited and the platform 2/3 island was removed - even so, the absolute limit was 8 carriages with trains needing to virtually touch the buffers on platforms 1 and 4 to clear the points far enough to leave the other one of those platforms accessible.  Platform 6, which was also short, was taken out as well leaving just the three platforms.

When we moved to London in 1959, my Dad's daily commute was from Petts Wood into Holborn Viaduct, from where a short walk took him across Holborn Viaduct itself to his office in a wedge-shaped building on the corner of Holborn Circus, blocking the view of St Andrew's Church.



These days, Holborn Viaduct is gone ... and the trains carry on through, burrowing under through the replacement City Thameslink to Farringdon and onwards towards the North.   Call that "Crossrail 0" if you like, with "Crossrail 1" about to be (!) completed taking suburban trains out of the termini at Paddington Liverpool Street.   Things have gone quiet on Crossrail 2 - but that will take trains that currently terminate at Waterloo and send them under London to the Lea Valley.  Crossrail 3 will burrow down on the approaches to London Bridge and will emerge to the north of Marylebone, and Crossrail 4 will link Fenchurch Street and Victoria.



It strikes me that - for some London termini - station exits at the country end of the platforms could help the asymmetric loading.  The intermediate bridge at Paddington, so that people don't crush towards The Lawn (especially now that City bound tubes to from the H&C platforms) isa step in that direction ... and I can't help feeling that exits / entrances (stairs or lifts) at the Embankment end of Charing Cross would be well patronised, even if the shopkeepers of Villiers Street moaned at a loss of business.
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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2020, 06:12:58 pm »

From Monday coming the 12-car 387 and 10-car 800/2 GWR formations are returning to at least some extent.  There's an increase in the 9-car formations out and about as well than currently is the case.

In other news, TfL are in desperate need of financial support: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52662171
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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2020, 06:32:31 pm »

How (if at all) are GWR planning to manage boarding to ensure that as far as possible social distancing is maintained and services do not become crowded?

Among the great flood of Covid-19 documents pushed out over the last couple of days, there is this one called "Coronavirus (COVID-19): safer transport guidance for operators". I guess they hope id that GWR and the rest will read it and say "ooh, goody, that answers all our questions". Somehow I don't think it will.

Here's a small sample:
Quote
Crowd management
    Consider whether queues can be moved to locations with more space for safe queues. Liaise as appropriate with other bodies (such as other transport operators, landlords and local authorities) to safely manage queues and any impact on public spaces. Consider how to provide passengers and services users with information on the service.
    If services, concourses or interchanges become too crowded, or queues become too long, operators should consider the full range of operational responses available, recognising the knock-on effects on other transport modes in making these decisions.
    Use social media, apps and other digital methods to alert passengers before they leave home, and to help passengers stay away or disperse until there is sufficient capacity available.

Social distancing in vehicles and at service areas, stations, stops, ports and airports
    Rearranging, limiting or removing seating to try and ensure social distancing is observed and that it can be cleaned regularly using a rota or some other tracker. This may include:
  • Blocking off seats that are in close proximity to a driver or other workers and passengers.
  •         Removing face-to-face seating.
  •         Maximising separation for example by sitting in back left hand seat of a car.
    Using floor tape, signs or paint in passenger areas to help people keep 2 metres apart, where appropriate. Using screens to create a physical barrier between people where appropriate, such as in ticket offices.
    Introducing more one-way flow through areas and vehicles.
    Revising maximum occupancy for lifts and ways of operating lifts.
    Making arrangements for monitoring compliance to assist with further planning (for example appointment of a social distancing marshal).
    Keeping in mind particular needs of workers and passengers who have protected characteristics, for example disabled people, the elderly and pregnant women.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2020, 07:50:09 am »

How (if at all) are GWR planning to manage boarding to ensure that as far as possible social distancing is maintained and services do not become crowded?

Among the great flood of Covid-19 documents pushed out over the last couple of days, there is this one called "Coronavirus (COVID-19): safer transport guidance for operators". I guess they hope id that GWR and the rest will read it and say "ooh, goody, that answers all our questions". Somehow I don't think it will.

Here's a small sample:
Quote
Crowd management
    Consider whether queues can be moved to locations with more space for safe queues. Liaise as appropriate with other bodies (such as other transport operators, landlords and local authorities) to safely manage queues and any impact on public spaces. Consider how to provide passengers and services users with information on the service.
    If services, concourses or interchanges become too crowded, or queues become too long, operators should consider the full range of operational responses available, recognising the knock-on effects on other transport modes in making these decisions.
    Use social media, apps and other digital methods to alert passengers before they leave home, and to help passengers stay away or disperse until there is sufficient capacity available.

Social distancing in vehicles and at service areas, stations, stops, ports and airports
    Rearranging, limiting or removing seating to try and ensure social distancing is observed and that it can be cleaned regularly using a rota or some other tracker. This may include:
  • Blocking off seats that are in close proximity to a driver or other workers and passengers.
  •         Removing face-to-face seating.
  •         Maximising separation for example by sitting in back left hand seat of a car.
    Using floor tape, signs or paint in passenger areas to help people keep 2 metres apart, where appropriate. Using screens to create a physical barrier between people where appropriate, such as in ticket offices.
    Introducing more one-way flow through areas and vehicles.
    Revising maximum occupancy for lifts and ways of operating lifts.
    Making arrangements for monitoring compliance to assist with further planning (for example appointment of a social distancing marshal).
    Keeping in mind particular needs of workers and passengers who have protected characteristics, for example disabled people, the elderly and pregnant women.

It's be interesting to know if GWR are actually implementing any of these suggestions, or indeed any other measures along similar lines? (As Avanti are)
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REVUpminster
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« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2020, 12:22:55 pm »

Paignton-Exmouth seem to back to 4 coaches; probably more for the Exmouth commuters.
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Electric train
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« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2020, 01:01:21 pm »

RMT now threatening strike action - oh no we aren't - oh yes they are!  Roll Eyes

https://twitter.com/i/status/1260464900624863232

I'm no fan boy of the RMT leader that's not quite what he said.

He is saying to his members if you feel unsafe is to enact the "work safe procedures"  which are pretty universal in the Rail Industry.

The Unions and senior railway management (NR and ToC's) have work very hard over the last 2 or so weeks to agree how to ramp up the train service to 70 or 80%  The Unions have worked very proactively in this process.

The really annoying thing is the Prime Minister blusters out last Sunday people should start to return to work, when the DfT and the Rail Industry had agreed the 18th May to commence the service increase.

The reason the railway needed a few weeks, quite a lot of trains had been sat in sidings for weeks so needed checking and treating with antiviral, NR need to ensure system were fully working.  Also management plans and flow control needed to be set up at stations 
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2020, 04:47:15 pm »

RMT now threatening strike action - oh no we aren't - oh yes they are!  Roll Eyes

https://twitter.com/i/status/1260464900624863232

I'm no fan boy of the RMT leader that's not quite what he said.

He is saying to his members if you feel unsafe is to enact the "work safe procedures"  which are pretty universal in the Rail Industry.

The Unions and senior railway management (NR and ToC's) have work very hard over the last 2 or so weeks to agree how to ramp up the train service to 70 or 80%  The Unions have worked very proactively in this process.

The really annoying thing is the Prime Minister blusters out last Sunday people should start to return to work, when the DfT and the Rail Industry had agreed the 18th May to commence the service increase.

The reason the railway needed a few weeks, quite a lot of trains had been sat in sidings for weeks so needed checking and treating with antiviral, NR need to ensure system were fully working.  Also management plans and flow control needed to be set up at stations 

......if not that, they'll find something else to strike over.....🤦‍♂️

http://railnews.mobi/news/2020/05/15-rmt-threatens-strike-over-governments.html
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« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2020, 10:45:58 am »

A couple of examples of social distancing measures on GWR platforms.
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4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2020, 11:15:42 pm »



Once upon a time, many years ago .... it did happen.   One of the big concerns with the "10 car scheme" replacing 8 car trains with 10 car ones to places like Dartford and Sevenoaks was that it wasn't adding 25% capacity because the country end of the train was always much quieter.  And, yes, there were those of us who used to travel in the back of the train in the morning and the front in the evening, and wish that 10 car trains ran into Holborn Viaduct toot for some reason they never did.

Fascinating. The large rail terminus has never really been built for everyday journeys. London Waterloo is probably the one which handles everyday best. Germany has replaced many of it's termini, largely to benefit through running I guess, but with the added bonus of better crowd control.
The only termini in Germany which I can think of which have been replaced by through stations are Stuttgart (still being built) and the deep level lines - essentially the north-south routes - at the Berlin Hbf. Leipzig Hbf has had an S-Bahn tunnel dug underneath it but remains a terminus for main line trains and München Hbf is still a terminus and is likely to remain so, its S-Bahn tunnel having been built some 50 years ago. Frankfurt-am-Main is still a terminus.

The Hauptbahnhöfe in other cities: Hamburg; Köln; Hannover; Essen; Dresden; and so on are through stations and have been since time immemorial, so to speak!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 11:22:43 pm by 4064ReadingAbbey » Logged
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« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2020, 12:43:44 am »

New information, put on BBC after minight, could be intersting in London on Monday..
Quote: Security guards with crowd management training will be at some stations.
From. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52701112

Thankfully I live in Dorset, and can cycle to work when it restarts.
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