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  • Devon Metro case study ONLINE: May 20, 2020
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Author Topic: Metroisation of the Railways Devon Metro Case Study Wed 20th May, 3.30-5.30pm  (Read 642 times)
grahame
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« on: May 15, 2020, 10:02:21 am »

Integrating local and national services to serve the community by enabling shorter headways

Free online event (but preliminary to a paid conference in October) by by Love Architecture Ltd
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/connectedcities-metroisation-of-the-railways-devon-metro-case-study-tickets-105064115598

Speakers

Mathew Barnes, Regional Development Manager, Great Western Railway
Integrating Metro and Mainline Services

Christian Irwin, Industry Programme Director Devon & Cornwall, Network Rail
Coordinating Rolling Stock, Timetabling & Infrastructure including new signalling

Councillor Andrea Davis, Cabinet Member for Infrastructure & Development, Devon County Council
Delivering New Stations

Camilla Ween, Head of Communications, ConnectedCites
Putting Rail at the Heart of Devon's Development

Agenda looks good but have some "time travel" miracles in it; I will update when that is clearer

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REVUpminster
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2020, 12:31:56 pm »

I think GWR are fearful of the Devon Metro as they might not be able to cope with the latent demand from places like Crediton, Cullompton, and Cranbrook all wanting to go to Exeter. Torbay also which is now a commuter town and I wonder why they have never had much enthusiasm for new stations at Marsh Barton and Edginswell and certainly not for an open crossing at Paignton which is in the Paignton masterplan.
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grahame
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2020, 01:11:42 pm »

I think GWR are fearful of the Devon Metro as they might not be able to cope with the latent demand from places like Crediton, Cullompton, and Cranbrook all wanting to go to Exeter. Torbay also which is now a commuter town and I wonder why they have never had much enthusiasm for new stations at Marsh Barton and Edginswell and certainly not for an open crossing at Paignton which is in the Paignton masterplan.

We still have little data on DA3 while GWR and the DfT work out what can be done now and in due course and whether any of the elements won't happen after all.   However, what we do know is that more carriages are planned.     As I understand it, additional unpowered centre carriages from class 365 units will be added into class 165 and 166 units.   150/2 units of which GWR have 20 will be retained rather than lost (I believe 10 might have been due to go) and there's 19 class 769s (over)due to arrive too.  6 class 143 are due to retire at the weekend but in practise were furloughed in March, and the 2 x 150/0 left in March too.    All of which is a significant capacity step up.

With longer trains, handling extra passengers should not be a problem except for social distancing measures. I appreciate that's the elephant (or blue whale) in the room at the moment.  More frequent services (for a local train for Cranbrook) might be an issue, especially if The Mule is in use for diversions.   New stations on main lines - or indeed on branches that are running to train capacity - could be a problem.  I note the seminar talks about shorter headways which is all well and good until you try to run the Cornish Riviera, without stops Exeter to Plymouth, between two trains in the 15 minute pattern calling at St. Thomas, Marsh Barton, Exminster, Starcross, Dawlish Warren, Dawlish, Holcombe, Teignmouth, and Bishopsteignton on the way to Newton Abbot.  And I think that mix of trains is what makes some powers-that-be rather lukewarm, especially (if you listen to ministers, or business leaders from Plymouth) rail investment has been all about speed to London.
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REVUpminster
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2020, 06:02:22 pm »

The problem in the current timetables is that the slow trains are timetabled before the fast train and then held in Dawlish Warren for 10 minutes (longer if the fast train is late). The semi fast slow trains (non stopping Dawlish Warren to St Thomas) are plain daft as the train then gets held at Exeter St David's for a slot down to Exmouth. Not conducive to a metro service.  I always thought the Paignton trains should reverse at St James Park and the Exmouth served by the Barnstaple trains with a shuttle between St David's and Exmouth to make up the half hour service.
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RichardB
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2020, 07:31:20 pm »

I note the seminar talks about shorter headways which is all well and good until you try to run the Cornish Riviera, without stops Exeter to Plymouth, between two trains in the 15 minute pattern calling at St. Thomas, Marsh Barton, Exminster, Starcross, Dawlish Warren, Dawlish, Holcombe, Teignmouth, and Bishopsteignton on the way to Newton Abbot. 

In terms of new stations between Exeter and Newton Abbot, once Marsh Barton has opened, I wouldn't expect any others.  Exminster has already been explicitly been ruled out and I have to say I've not heard anything at all about Holcombe and Bishopsteignton.
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chopper1944
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2020, 07:49:38 pm »

Makes a case for a direct avoiding line between Exeter St Davids and Newton Abbot with no intermediate stations
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grahame
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2020, 03:41:31 am »

I note the seminar talks about shorter headways which is all well and good until you try to run the Cornish Riviera, without stops Exeter to Plymouth, between two trains in the 15 minute pattern calling at St. Thomas, Marsh Barton, Exminster, Starcross, Dawlish Warren, Dawlish, Holcombe, Teignmouth, and Bishopsteignton on the way to Newton Abbot. 

In terms of new stations between Exeter and Newton Abbot, once Marsh Barton has opened, I wouldn't expect any others.  Exminster has already been explicitly been ruled out and I have to say I've not heard anything at all about Holcombe and Bishopsteignton.

Sorry Richard - tongue was in hypothetical cheek. As it was on the suggestion of a 15 minute pattern.  But - who knows where we'll be by the end of the next decade?
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RichardB
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2020, 01:11:51 pm »

I note the seminar talks about shorter headways which is all well and good until you try to run the Cornish Riviera, without stops Exeter to Plymouth, between two trains in the 15 minute pattern calling at St. Thomas, Marsh Barton, Exminster, Starcross, Dawlish Warren, Dawlish, Holcombe, Teignmouth, and Bishopsteignton on the way to Newton Abbot. 

In terms of new stations between Exeter and Newton Abbot, once Marsh Barton has opened, I wouldn't expect any others.  Exminster has already been explicitly been ruled out and I have to say I've not heard anything at all about Holcombe and Bishopsteignton.

Sorry Richard - tongue was in hypothetical cheek. As it was on the suggestion of a 15 minute pattern.  But - who knows where we'll be by the end of the next decade?

No worries, Graham.  Who knows indeed.  I suspect (and hope) we might be able to travel across Dartmoor by train.  That'll help the sea wall route of course.
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grahame
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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2020, 06:48:41 am »

An interesting online seminar yesterday from Connected Cities on Metroisation - a case study of the Devon Metro with speakers including Matt Barnes of GWR and Christian Irwin of Network Rail. Good to meet a number of well know community amd rail champions in the lobby ahead of the meeting too.

The session was a case study - so a look at services and service developemt, capacity issues, and studies of Cranbrook with Newcourt and Copplestone with honourry mentions, and a look ahead to Marsh Barton and Cullompton. Further ahead, looking at Totnes, Dartington and Dainton - the latter adding around 30k residences within 1km of a new station.  I will leave other members to post about specific stations and plans; when we broke out to workshops, I was one of a small minority who took a look towards the wider theory rather than GWR, Devon Council or Network Rail specifics.

(Ideal) connected Station principles .... a "Pedshed" central pedestrian area aroind a station, preferably on an existing line.  A high density mixed use area around that.  Wedges of green coming right into the centre, alternating with wedges of family housing - villages between the green wedges. Vehicle access via s circular road half way out with key high street around where it crossed the railway.



Greater / wider growth with communities around these connected stations running in to each other, and with a (?) frequent public transport service between them  with journey times of 15 minutes or less between them.



A further series of semininars planned and I will add to our diary the Bristol Metro one (planned for July) amd Oxford (planned for September) when the actual dates come my way

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REVUpminster
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2020, 04:54:17 pm »

The adopted masterplan for Paignton in 2015 sound like a good place to introduce a "pedshed" as it imagines a pedestrianised open level crossing and high rise flats/offices? as a focal point.
Paignton Town Square 2015 adopted masterplan by Robert, on Flickr

Open crossing with a Voyager approaching.

Paignton Town Square 2015 adopted masterplan plan by Robert, on Flickr

Plan shows the current Sports Direct and Pound shop replaced with a replacement high rise set further back
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REVUpminster
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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2020, 05:01:45 pm »

Was any mention of Edginswell station in Torquay which is another growth area? I believe Marsh Barton has the money and ready to start although the costs have risen out of all proportion.
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grahame
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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2020, 06:41:24 pm »

Was any mention of Edginswell station in Torquay which is another growth area? I believe Marsh Barton has the money and ready to start although the costs have risen out of all proportion.

Yes, Edginswell and several others were mentioned that didn't make it into my notes.  On Marsh Barton cost, there was a section on reducing the costs by turning the footbridges 90 degrees to avoid the need for too many expensive possessions, and a note of the particular possession problem caused by the sleeper going through at some ungodly hour.

I saw many friends from Devon on the Zoom session - PLEASE come into the thread and contribute some local stuff - I am off my patch here; haven't been to Devon since March!
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RichardB
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2020, 09:11:38 pm »

I have to say I don't remember Edginswell getting a mention yesterday.  Having a dig around, I see it looks like the Torbay MP has submitted it in the Restoring Your Railway/New Stations Fund process https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/plans-new-rail-station-torquay-3913230

Apart from Marsh Barton, stations mentioned by Cllr Andrea Davis of Devon CC were Okehampton, Tavistock and Cullompton.  ConnectedCities mentioned a few more but most of them struck me as being, at best, very long term indeed.   
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REVUpminster
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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2020, 10:24:09 pm »

Planning permission for Edginswell Station was granted November 2016 and expired November 2019 so I suppose will have to go to planning again. It would serve the Torquay gateway scheme, which has not really got going, as well as new housing opposite, mostly built. It would also serve Torbay hospital and the possible new stadium for Torquay United if the owner scaled down his other plans for houses, retail, and hotels on the site. The stadium would have been convertible to a concert venue as well. It's all on a previous refuse tip so is brownfield and is ear marked for sport.
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