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Author Topic: Future of Class 180s?  (Read 8598 times)
grahame
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« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2020, 00:43:35 »

93 class 800
42 class 801
60 class 802
(195 in group)

Class 810, 33 x 5 car for Midland Main Line, bimode, due to enter service during 2022
Class 803, 5 x 5 car for East Coast Trains, Standard Class Only, Electric, with buffet, delivery this year (2020)

Further 23 on order ... Rail Magazine
13 x 805 (Bimode) and 10 x 807 (Electric) for Avanti, delivery 2022.

I make that 255 units in total.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 00:53:09 by grahame » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2020, 07:58:44 »

DfT» (Department for Transport - about), the ROSCOs» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) and ToC's will and are focusing on some standard products from the manufactures.  A uniformity of trains and traction units manages to keep the operating costs down.  Many of the trains are now maintained by the manufacture at depots they manage and operate.

BR (British Rail(ways)) had started on this route, Mk2 (Mark 2 coach) coaches then the Mk3 and HST (High Speed Train), its Networker fleet, BR had started to eradicate different classes of locomotives
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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2020, 18:12:49 »

DfT» (Department for Transport - about), the ROSCOs» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) and ToC's will and are focusing on some standard products from the manufactures.  A uniformity of trains and traction units manages to keep the operating costs down.  Many of the trains are now maintained by the manufacture at depots they manage and operate.

BR (British Rail(ways)) had started on this route, Mk2 (Mark 2 coach) coaches then the Mk3 and HST (High Speed Train), its Networker fleet, BR had started to eradicate different classes of locomotives

Yet it's taken the privatised rail industry 24 years to work it out! Hopefully by 2024 Cross Country will be added to that list of IET (Intercity Express Train) operators, whilst they(IETs) have their downfalls, the majority of which I hope will be fixed in the future during overhauls they aren't bad trains. I do wonder in the future if Hitachi might release a regional dmu, a mix between a Class 385 & a Class 800.
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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2020, 18:40:39 »

Hopefully by 2024 Cross Country will be added to that list of IET (Intercity Express Train) operators, whilst they(IETs) have their downfalls, the majority of which I hope will be fixed in the future during overhauls they aren't bad trains.
I suspect the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) will judge that the best reuse of the glut of Voyagers (and possibly Meridians) being released by Avanti and EMR» (East Midlands Railway, also known as EMT» (East Midlands Trains - about) (East Midlands Trains) - about) will be on Cross Country. I hope the Voyagers will get a thorough overhaul to make them more spacious inside, and more suitable for longer distance journeys. They are due one after nigh on 20 years in service, and with more rolling stock available, hopefully the seat pitch/table provision can be more akin to the IETs.  If they don't get it now, then I suspect they will go their whole life in more or less the original state, which would be a very depressing thought for passengers.
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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2020, 01:00:15 »

Hopefully by 2024 Cross Country will be added to that list of IET (Intercity Express Train) operators, whilst they(IETs) have their downfalls, the majority of which I hope will be fixed in the future during overhauls they aren't bad trains.
I suspect the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) will judge that the best reuse of the glut of Voyagers (and possibly Meridians) being released by Avanti and EMR» (East Midlands Railway, also known as EMT» (East Midlands Trains - about) (East Midlands Trains) - about) will be on Cross Country. I hope the Voyagers will get a thorough overhaul to make them more spacious inside, and more suitable for longer distance journeys. They are due one after nigh on 20 years in service, and with more rolling stock available, hopefully the seat pitch/table provision can be more akin to the IETs.  If they don't get it now, then I suspect they will go their whole life in more or less the original state, which would be a very depressing thought for passengers.

Probably the most likely scenario, the voyagers are fine for us on shorter intercity services, Hull Trains, Transpennie. But for Crosscounty they are certainly not.
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2020, 06:01:56 »

Hopefully by 2024 Cross Country will be added to that list of IET (Intercity Express Train) operators, whilst they(IETs) have their downfalls, the majority of which I hope will be fixed in the future during overhauls they aren't bad trains.
I suspect the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) will judge that the best reuse of the glut of Voyagers (and possibly Meridians) being released by Avanti and EMR» (East Midlands Railway, also known as EMT» (East Midlands Trains - about) (East Midlands Trains) - about) will be on Cross Country. I hope the Voyagers will get a thorough overhaul to make them more spacious inside, and more suitable for longer distance journeys. They are due one after nigh on 20 years in service, and with more rolling stock available, hopefully the seat pitch/table provision can be more akin to the IETs.  If they don't get it now, then I suspect they will go their whole life in more or less the original state, which would be a very depressing thought for passengers.

Probably the most likely scenario, the voyagers are fine for us on shorter intercity services, Hull Trains, Transpennie. But for Crosscounty they are certainly not.

I think that the Meridians are cousins of the Voyagers?  So some commonality in maintenance and skills in a fleet of over 100 trains.  And a very different prospect to a fleet of 14 trains which has proven difficult and expensive to keep in daily service.

By "shorter intercity services", what do you mean?   Do you mean services that don't take very long, services that don't cover long distances, or services that don't need many carriages?   Although many Cross Country Train franchise services cover long, long distances taking a very long time, most of the passengers on them aren't going all that far.   Business from Bristol or south thereof to Newcastle or north thereof will account for perhaps just a handful of seats in a carriage, and you'll find if you talk to most groups on there that they're travelling from Exeter or Taunton to Bristol, from Bristol to Birmingham, Birmingham to Sheffield or Sheffield to Newcastle.  Domestic air travel in recent years has ripped away most of the very long distance traffic on speed, on price, on comfort / experience and on marketing.

Operationally, no problem for a Voyager to run from Penzance to Aberdeen. Operationally, no problem to couple two Voyagers together.  For current market (as it was up to very recently) shorter journeys by almost all passengers on the trains.  Not sure why Voyagers are "certainly not" fine for these journeys but they are for Hull to London or for Manchester to Edinburgh - perhaps you can clarify why you are certain, southwest?
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2020, 11:50:08 »

As one of the few members of this forum who finds Voyagers acceptable, even for long distances, can I add in their defence too that I did a journey from Inverness to Reading nearly 5 years ago, changing from an HST (High Speed Train) 125 to a Voyager at Newcastle and the seats on the Voyager were much more comfortable than those on the Virgin East Coast HST.

I appreciate that compared to a 180, there's a lot more space in the latter, but the fact that there are only 14 of them with no repeat orders and a history of being sent back to the lessors speaks for itself.
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« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2020, 12:59:14 »

The real issue on Cross country is overcrowding. Due to the trains being to short for the number of passengers in the core area ie Bristol-York/Manchester and Reading/York/Manchester.
When Voyagers get crowded they become extremly Claustrophobic due to the reduced width of the coaches (to allow for tilt that is no longer used). This also applies to Meridians I had a very unplesant trip from St Pancras to Derby on one last year.

If the Ex West coast Voyagers and the Meridians are added to Cross country it will Improve things but idealy the fleet needs some major metalwork to produce longer trains by removing some cabs.

One problem in the GWR (Great Western Railway) area is going to be capacity at Reading currently Cross country make use of the Bays especialy platform 3 this will not be possible with longer units or 2 coupled. Arriving from the north with 2 units and leaving 1 at Reading is going to require a full length platform being occupied for about 30 minutes Network rail will not like that.
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« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2020, 13:10:01 »

The real issue on Cross country is overcrowding. Due to the trains being to short for the number of passengers in the core area ie Bristol-York/Manchester and Reading/York/Manchester.

[snip]

One problem in the GWR (Great Western Railway) area is going to be capacity at Reading currently Cross country make use of the Bays especialy platform 3 this will not be possible with longer units or 2 coupled. Arriving from the north with 2 units and leaving 1 at Reading is going to require a full length platform being occupied for about 30 minutes Network rail will not like that.

Remember 1S76 ... front unit onwards again via the North Downs line while the rear heads to / via Southampton?      Agreed on the overcrowding ... any other splits at the end of the core section?
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« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2020, 13:13:59 »

DfT» (Department for Transport - about), the ROSCOs» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) and ToC's will and are focusing on some standard products from the manufactures.  A uniformity of trains and traction units manages to keep the operating costs down.  Many of the trains are now maintained by the manufacture at depots they manage and operate.

BR (British Rail(ways)) had started on this route, Mk2 (Mark 2 coach) coaches then the Mk3 and HST (High Speed Train), its Networker fleet, BR had started to eradicate different classes of locomotives

 I do wonder in the future if Hitachi might release a regional dmu, a mix between a Class 385 & a Class 800.

Hitachi have basically 3 types of trains they offer, intercity type (800's) they have a regional unit as well as a suburban they did bid for both Crossrail and TLP.  They have put forward designs for LUL (London Underground Ltd) stock as well
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« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2020, 13:21:11 »

There is one service that runs south from the north east in the Evening peak as far as Gloucester as 2 units then splits one unit continues to Plymouth and the other returns ECS (Empty Coaching Stock) to Central rivers via Worcester Shrub hill.
The last time I used it (from Sheffield at 5pm to New street) it was short formed!
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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2020, 13:41:53 »

Quote
One problem in the GWR (Great Western Railway) area is going to be capacity at Reading currently Cross country make use of the Bays especialy platform 3 this will not be possible with longer units or 2 coupled. Arriving from the north with 2 units and leaving 1 at Reading is going to require a full length platform being occupied for about 30 minutes Network rail will not like that.
{like}

OK - so it's over two months since I darkened the doors of Reading Station, but at the times I usually travel/travelled through they use/used other through platforms, especially 7 and 8 which are/were frequently both occupied in the early evening by Cross Country trains. There are now 8 through platforms, double the number before, so surely there's capacity?
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« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2020, 14:22:26 »

There is one service that runs south from the north east in the Evening peak as far as Gloucester as 2 units then splits one unit continues to Plymouth and the other returns ECS (Empty Coaching Stock) to Central rivers via Worcester Shrub hill.
The last time I used it (from Sheffield at 5pm to New street) it was short formed!

I'm suspecting it goes via Worcester for route learning?    South of Birmingham, with a statistically insignificant small number of personal journeys under my belt (one!) I suspect 1 unit would be plenty.
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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2020, 14:37:14 »

For clarity I meant the Class 180s have a terrible reliability record which would make them an unattractive proposition, although I can see how my wording was rather ambiguous.

Old Oak Common really got the hang of them in their latter days: as a regular 180 passenger on the Cotswold Line, I don't recall having any mechanical-induced cancellations in their last few years. It's noticeable that their new stewards haven't been quite so adept.

As a passenger I slightly prefer them to IETs (Intercity Express Train) - they feel airier and the bike space is so much better. But then I don't have to repair them...

The difference in ride quality between them and 125's was noticeable at speed. Can work/make notes happily most of the time on a 125 or 80x, but 180s were usually too bouncy
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2020, 15:06:56 »

There is one service that runs south from the north east in the Evening peak as far as Gloucester as 2 units then splits one unit continues to Plymouth and the other returns ECS (Empty Coaching Stock) to Central rivers via Worcester Shrub hill.
The last time I used it (from Sheffield at 5pm to New street) it was short formed!

Quite a lot of them, at a guess well over half, are running as 8/9 cars at the moment due to the reduction in numbers of XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services.
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