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Author Topic: The end of coal  (Read 35279 times)
Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #75 on: June 18, 2021, 14:14:40 »

But will there be no coal?  Is not one of the benefits of making the great majority of future transportation carbon neutral that it allows for limited fossil fuel heritage technologies such a steam power to continue?  Should not the question really be, how can a modest amount of coal be economically mined to supply this sector?  Perhaps a productive heritage mine?
You can use the same rationale with vintage motor cars although synthetic fuel would probably be easier to produce?
The price of the heritage coal could be subsidised by tourists, who would pay for the chance to dress up in period costume and swing a pick axe till they've filled a burlap sack. They could then buy heritage fodder to feed the pit ponies and finally enjoy a genuine Edwardian pitman's dinner.  Grin
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broadgage
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« Reply #76 on: June 18, 2021, 16:15:58 »

Is heritage fodder for pit ponies any different from modern fodder ?
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #77 on: June 18, 2021, 22:31:11 »

A little internet search reveals that there are at present 184 coal-fired power stations under construction in China.  I don't see how the "decarbonisation" (a totally impossible target and almost certainly prohibitively expensive) that is now stated Government policy for the UK (United Kingdom) is going to make all that much difference to the atmosphere.  It'll just make us all colder, less free, and less prosperous

Exactly, one of the reasons why it's so baffling that Extinction Rebellion, Greta etc don't spend more time protesting in China.
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TonyK
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« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2021, 00:11:14 »

A little internet search reveals that there are at present 184 coal-fired power stations under construction in China.  I don't see how the "decarbonisation" (a totally impossible target and almost certainly prohibitively expensive) that is now stated Government policy for the UK (United Kingdom) is going to make all that much difference to the atmosphere.  It'll just make us all colder, less free, and less prosperous

Exactly, one of the reasons why it's so baffling that Extinction Rebellion, Greta etc don't spend more time protesting in China.

Brave people died for less in our own bedrock of democracy, in the olden days. It could be that China has a more robust policy towards who speaks out loudly than our own Albion, this Septic Isle, and more secure borders to boot. You could also ask why critics of Islam don't spend more time protesting in Teheran, why more foreigners don't stage anti-gun rallies in the southern states of the USA, and why Aung San Suu Kyi had such a bad time after a former US navy seal swam to her home to talk to her. China is building more coal power stations, but also furnishes the rest of the world with cheap renewable energy stuff, and will probably be "carbon neutral" long before we and the US are. At what cost, I couldn't begin to imagine. I view it as a balance to our own green narrative, and see it as a new imperialism feeding off our need to export pollution rather than labour cost, but I really know bugger all in the grand scheme of things.

Speaking of borders, I realise that I am bordering on the zone of international politics, so shall take a step backwards. I don't like a lot of what the Chinese state is doing. I am no apologist, but I am not convinced that our own media is in possession of, or sharing, all of the facts. As it happens, I have Chinese friends (and currently house guests) who might not swallow the whole party line, but whom I would not embarrass (or endanger) by discussion of their differences. I'll let you know when they are safely home, and we can discuss it then if anyone wants to. Meanwhile...

Health services are not free in China, which surprised me. Traditional medicine is not the preferred option for most people there these days. They don't all buy bats in wet markets, which didn't surprise me, and pangolins are protected by law. Until relatively recently, I didn't know that there were pangolins, so I was mildly surprised. I took one friend to see GWR (Great Western Railway) in action - she asked how fast the trains travelled at. I told her, proudly, that they do up to 125 mph, or about 200 kph. She asked if we also have any high speed trains.
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broadgage
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« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2021, 07:52:45 »

A little internet search reveals that there are at present 184 coal-fired power stations under construction in China.  I don't see how the "decarbonisation" (a totally impossible target and almost certainly prohibitively expensive) that is now stated Government policy for the UK (United Kingdom) is going to make all that much difference to the atmosphere.  It'll just make us all colder, less free, and less prosperous

Exactly, one of the reasons why it's so baffling that Extinction Rebellion, Greta etc don't spend more time protesting in China.

I suspect that Greta and others expressing similar views in China would be arrested as "spies" or as "CIA (Central Intelligence Agency (USA)) agents" or might simply vanish.
However we in the free world should not lower ourselves to the standards prevailing in china.

I avoid, so far as is possible, the purchase of chinese goods due to that countries poor record on the enviroment and on human rights.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
ellendune
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« Reply #80 on: June 19, 2021, 10:00:38 »

However we in the free world ......

At the moment - however we must always be on our guard. 
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #81 on: June 19, 2021, 12:18:02 »

I doubt if Greta would be given a visa to enter China.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #82 on: June 19, 2021, 16:45:41 »

I doubt if Greta would be given a visa to enter China.

Much longer, CO2 generating flight than last time for the crew to bring her "zero carbon" yacht back afterwards too!  Smiley
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TonyK
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« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2021, 21:05:05 »

I doubt if Greta would be given a visa to enter China.

I don't see why not. She could do a speech to the assembled suits at party HQ (Headquarters), say "How dare you!", then be given a tour of happy smiley solar panel factories, with the official media in close attendance. She is a teenager with a passion for the environment, and not a subversive or a spy, and therefore of little cause for alarm. She wouldn't need a yacht either - the journey from Sweden is possible overland. Quicker than sea too, taking under 3 weeks, even with two changes of gauge.
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Rhydgaled
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« Reply #84 on: June 21, 2021, 18:33:09 »

A little internet search reveals that there are at present 184 coal-fired power stations under construction in China.  I don't see how the "decarbonisation" (a totally impossible target and almost certainly prohibitively expensive) that is now stated Government policy for the UK (United Kingdom) is going to make all that much difference to the atmosphere. It'll just make us all colder, less free, and less prosperous[/b]
In the short term then maybe it will "just make us all colder, less free, and less prosperous" but unless we (and China, and everyone else) can put a stop to climate change the world will end up alot poorer (both financially from the cost of dealing with major cities becoming below sea level and in terms of biodiversity) in the slightly longer term.

We can but hope that China sorts itself out. If it doesn't then, as you say, anything the UK does is unlikely to change the outcome - we'll still end up with London below sea level etc. If, on the other hand, China (and the USA etc.) does sort itself out then we had better have sorted ourselves out here in the UK - otherwise it will be our emissions here in the UK that will be responsible for tipping the world over the edge and into the very bad place we are currently heading for.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
ellendune
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« Reply #85 on: June 21, 2021, 22:54:40 »

I don't see how the "decarbonisation" (a totally impossible target and almost certainly prohibitively expensive) that is now stated Government policy for the UK (United Kingdom) is going to make all that much difference to the atmosphere. It'll just make us all colder, less free, and less prosperous[/b]

In the short term then maybe it will "just make us all colder, less free, and less prosperous" but unless we (and China, and everyone else) can put a stop to climate change the world will end up alot poorer (both financially from the cost of dealing with major cities becoming below sea level and in terms of biodiversity) in the slightly longer term.

We can but hope that China sorts itself out. If it doesn't then, as you say, anything the UK does is unlikely to change the outcome - we'll still end up with London below sea level etc. If, on the other hand, China (and the USA etc.) does sort itself out then we had better have sorted ourselves out here in the UK - otherwise it will be our emissions here in the UK that will be responsible for tipping the world over the edge and into the very bad place we are currently heading for.

I disagree that net zero is prohibitively expensive. If we invest in new technology we can develop solutions that are cost effective.  The cost of renewable energy has come down dramatically over the years and we have even touched the most reliable source - Tidal Power.  If we distribute tidal generation around the UK (to sort out the periodic changes) we can get a reliable base load of generation 24/7 all the year round.  If we had put as much money on research into this in the last decade as we did into nuclear power development in the 1950's it would have been done by now!

I also disagree that our efforts will make little difference.  We are still one of the major emitters of CO2 and every bit helps reduce the impact of Climate Change. 

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broadgage
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« Reply #86 on: June 24, 2021, 16:27:02 »

I agree, and even if "net zero" can not be achieved in the near term,  a considerable reduction in fossil fuel use is still preferable to carrying on as normal.
Under present and foreseeable near future conditions I doubt that we can produce a reliable 24/7 electricity supply without burning natural gas at times of low renewable energy input.
Tidal power could change that and should be exploited on a considerable scale.

It was proposed for the Bristol Channel, but the NIMBYs managed to prevent it.

And returning to heritage railways, coal burning steam engines are inherently un green. Heritage lines should therefore IMHO (in my humble opinion) try to be as green as possible in other respects including.

Use of a battery locomotive for ECS (Empty Coaching Stock) moves, shunting and infrastructure trains.
Use battery traction for out of season commuter services.
Consider electric preheating of steam locos to reduce coal used.
Generate electricity from PV modules to the greatest possible extent.
Provide electric vehicle charging points for visitors.
Use electric road vehicles when possible.
Use high efficiency lighting and appliances whenever possible.

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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
bradshaw
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« Reply #87 on: June 24, 2021, 17:01:47 »

A read if Wikipedia regarding the Severn Tidal Barrage produces this

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  Following the Severn Tidal Power Feasibility Study (2008–10), the British government concluded that there was no strategic case for building a barrage but to continue to investigate emerging technologies. In June 2013 the Energy and Climate Change Select Committee published its findings after an eight-month study of the arguments for and against the Barrage. MPs (Member of Parliament) said the case for the barrage was unproven. They were not convinced the economic case was strong enough and said the developer, Hafren Power, had failed to answer serious environmental and economic concerns. 
Not really the Nimbys in this case?
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TonyK
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« Reply #88 on: June 24, 2021, 21:14:28 »

A read if Wikipedia regarding the Severn Tidal Barrage produces this

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  Following the Severn Tidal Power Feasibility Study (2008–10), the British government concluded that there was no strategic case for building a barrage but to continue to investigate emerging technologies. In June 2013 the Energy and Climate Change Select Committee published its findings after an eight-month study of the arguments for and against the Barrage. MPs (Member of Parliament) said the case for the barrage was unproven. They were not convinced the economic case was strong enough and said the developer, Hafren Power, had failed to answer serious environmental and economic concerns. 
Not really the Nimbys in this case?

I don't think so. There were a few influential MPs pushing it, and I was surprised the lobby didn't get it through. I seem to recall thinking that this was a rare case where the scientists had won the day, with some rather foreboding forecasts of gloom, doom, and ecological ruination being backed up by modelling and experimentation. I'm sure we haven't heard the last of it, but I can't see it happening.

Thinking it through, I think its very size mitigates against it. A big wind turbine costs a few million quid, a few hundred turbines cost a few hundred million quid. If it turns out that a few of them don't make money or cause a peat bog to slide into a salmon river, it isn't the end of the world, at least not for the finance group and promoters of the turbines. The Severn Barrage is an all or nothing job, a big roll of the dice with billions riding on it. If the Severn silts up behind it and all fish disappear, it is a complete failure, not a partial one. I don't think the men with the money see the chances of a complete success as high enough to gamble.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 07:52:58 by TonyK » Logged

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grahame
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« Reply #89 on: July 07, 2021, 05:50:12 »

From the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)

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There are fears steam trains will stop running under new laws which may lead to a ban on burning coal.

Paul Lewin, of the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland heritage railways in Gwynedd, said the industry needed "water-tight" exemptions to any proposed legislation.

Concerns were raised in the House of Lords any new law could "bring about the death of Thomas the Tank Engine" and threaten heritage attractions.

Aren't some of the Ffestiniog locomotives oil burners? - https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Ffestiniog_Goes_Back_To_Coal
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