Call for discounts for railcard users

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Had an email from Railcards today stating that the government has decided that no extensions or refunds will be given as the cost would be too great

I have received that too .. full text as follows:

You recently contacted us to ask whether there would be any changes to your Railcard terms and conditions due to the COVID pandemic.

We would like to thank you for your patience, as we know you have been waiting for an update.

After careful consideration, the government has confirmed to us that Railcards will remain non-refundable and will not be extended.

Due to the pandemic fewer people have been travelling by train. This means that the government is offering additional financial backing to the rail industry so that services keep running to support the economy.

Refunding or extending Railcards for over 5.1m customers would come at a significant cost to the taxpayer, at a time when the focus must be on maintaining rail services to support the country?s recovery from the pandemic.

Please rest assured that this decision has not been taken lightly, and we are truly sorry that this may not be the outcome you had been hoping for.

[RailCornwall]

It's really the 'luck' of the timing of the Pandemic, my D&C card expired in May, and I therefore benefitted from a few weeks without one before taking out my current card in the second week of July. This effectively gave me a discount of a couple of pounds or 16pct.

[southwest]

That had made my mind up not to renew for this year, I only used it a few times the previous year and so I don't see the point.

[grahame]

FAQ^▸ (Frequently Asked Questions) on "why not" at https://www.railcard.co.uk/faq/ (saying "no" in six different ways?)

From The Guardian

Anthony Smith, the chief executive of the independent watchdog Transport Focus, said: ?Passengers bought railcards in good faith and will be disappointed by the decision not to extend them or offer a discount on renewal to make up for the period when we were encouraged not to travel.

?While the government continues to provide high levels of support to make sure the day-to-day railway keeps operating, it seems a pity some slack could not be given on this issue to encourage people back to rail travel.?

Indeed - it was an opportunity to encourage people back.

[bradshaw]

This appeared on Twitter this evening. It seems clear that this was not a decision made within the industry. Apparently it is part of an email


https://twitter.com/_railcards/status/1311363986240274432?s=21

[grahame]

This appeared on Twitter this evening. It seems clear that this was not a decision made within the industry. Apparently it is part of an email

It's from the FAQ^▸ (Frequently Asked Questions) (too), linked above:

We understand the restrictions due to COVID means some Railcard customers haven?t made all of the journeys they had planned. After careful consideration the government has confirmed to us that Railcards will remain non-refundable and will not be extended.

Twitter reaction predictably negative

So... The youth... Who have been f***** over the most by the government and by Covid have now been f****** AGAIN by the government... A 6 month extension really wouldn't have been that great of a cost would it?!

You have 5.1 million very disappointed customers. Have you considered how much it will cost you if they don't renew their railcards?

Let's let half of the country claim 80% of their salary, up to ?2,500 per month, for 6 months but not extend railcard validation for a few extra months. The grand scheme of the cost would be ?15 per person. Nice one

An opportunity lost, and a very cheap way of disappointing 5 million people / public transport supporters, quite out of proportion to the cost.   Yet in practise, the problem needed nipping in the bud.  An announcement in late March that railcards would be extended for an in indefinite period (until optional travel allowed again) would have been easy enough.  However, by now many of us have had to make the decision whether or not to buy another railcard and any sort of concession that I can imagine would have created more anomalies and issues than it would have solved.

[Timmer]

A very short sighted decision by the government that will cost the industry in the longer term as people decide not to renew their rail cards and choose another mode of transport.

[didcotdean]

The comparison is with National Express which has added 6 months validity on all of its coachcards issued or valid in March 2020.

[Robin Summerhill]

A very short sighted decision by the government that will cost the industry in the longer term as people decide not to renew their rail cards and choose another mode of transport.

I am not criticisng your post when I say this, but I would like to know what the figures are. How many railcards are actually issued? How many discounted journeys are made? How many of those kourneys would not be made if people decided not to renew their railcards? I accept the last question is unanswerable (or at least unpredictable at the moment) but is yet another factor that will affect the bottom line in the long term.

I too am disgruntled. I have a three year Senior Railcard that expires in July next year, and the only times I've used it in the last 6+ months were for a day return to Paddington and another to Henley on Thames. However, those two journeys alone saved me ?25.75 on the normal fare and the railcard cost me ?70 for three years. I have got far more than my money's worth out if it since 2018 including, as an aside, a saving of ?272.05 in one go on a 14-day All Line Rover last year. That was my UK^▸ (United Kingdom) holiday for 2019!

So yes I'm disgruntked, but unless we are all still in a semi-lockdown in July next year, that disgruntled me will still be buying a new one. And if we are still in semi-locjdown I will buy one again when it ends.

I doubt that I am alone.

[ellendune]

My railcard expired in June.  At the moment I cannot see that I will renew it until normality is resumed.  My frequent journeys to London justified it in the past, but at the moment all those meetings are on-line.  We will have to see what happens - will they ever go back to being in-person meetings? I don't know.  Also I might have retired by then anyway. 

[grahame]

Your 3 year senior railcard probabable cost you 70.00.   And you probably bought it in anticipation of getting a discount for journeys that you wished to mske in any of the 36 months of its validity - that anticipation being part of your purchase decision.  You probably took a "perseonal circumastance" risk - that yor health would be good for travel throughout, for example, and that you would not decide to emigrate to Burkino Faso during the three years, where the card would be of little use other than wedging s table leg up in the "English Cafe" in Ouagadougou.   However, a product sold to you with a three year life / guarantee really should be available to you for three years and the supplier really should not withdraw the availability to use his product from you for more than a tiny part of that time. For indicidual train services, 2% is regarded as pretty much the limit for cancellations, and that works out very roughly at one week a year - three weeks on your three year ticket. That's the standard sert by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) for reliability on TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), and it really should stick to its own standards!

I do agree - railcards give an excellent deal, and many of us will (or will already have) renewed / purchased new ones when the old ones expire.  But "once bitten, twice shy" - the decision this time will involve a calculation "what if the government - the very organisation that sells us this card - then denies us use of the very services on which it can be used, and offers us nothing but two fingers in return?" and there will be some who don't take that risk.   There will be others who go ahead and take the risk.  And there will be others who leave a gap in their purchase of the card until trust in the goverment not (having to) take the same action again.  For those who do not purchase, or do not leave a gap, there is a calculation to be made whether or not to travel; if two out of three journeya are still made but at full price, the goverment's decision is immediately monetarily justified - but the longer term damage of repeated business and loss of confidence, and the miffed feeling of just about everyone who would have used the card remains.   I suspect - to answer your questions, Robin, 5 million, 75 million journeys per year of which perhaps 50 million would not be made if there were no railcards; those guesses pre-covid.

Think of the railcard as a loyalty card which you purchase.  Company goes bust and you probably just shrug your shoulders.   Company ceases to sell the products you've signed up for you feel more than a bit put out - especially if its roduct range becomes very limited indeed.   Many months later, it starts to offer the products again, wants you back, but doesn't even make a gesture towards extending yor loyaly card in compensation for the lost months.  Forget the money, ask what had happened to your trust and loyalty.

I have bought a new loyalty card. But I am no longer as loyal. In the past few days, I have used bus, car and coach as well as the train where in the past I might have waited that extra bit of time.

[Robin Summerhill]

My experience over the years is that one gets a better perspective on many problems if one stands back and looks at the bigger picture, rather than concentrate on individual circumstances. They should be examined of course, but in the context of that wider picture. This is certainly the case in the matter of railcards.

?I have paid an amount of money for the railcard and I haven?t been able to use it for x period of time, means I am entitled to my money back for the proportion of time I couldn?t use it? seems over-simplistic when looking at the wider picture. Even the answer to the apparently obvious question? why exactly did you buy a railcard?? may not be as straightforward as one might expect.

The simple answer is to get a one-third discount on a rail far, but quantity is not specified. It may be the purchasers intention to use it regularly but, bearing in mind that a ?30 railcard gives that one-third discount, any ordinary fare over ?90 would make it cheaper to buy r=the railcard and get the discount rather than pay the headline fare (bear in mind that an off peak return PLY^» (Plymouth - next trains)-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) costs 106.20 whilst with a railcard discount it would be 73.20 plus railcard costs). Some railcards might never be used at all, for example a well meaning relative buying someone a card for Christmas.

So where is the justification for issuing a refund to someone who only bought the card for one journey or hasn?t used it at all?

I would be interested to read Tony Ks thought on what would happen if somebody brought a civil action for their ?10 refund. Who would they claim against ie, who was at fault? Were they physically prevented from buying a ticket or boarding a train? If their journey was essential why did they not travel? If it was not essential what would they have done when they got there bearing in mind that everything would have been closed?

It strikes me that the only body one could make a case against is COVID 19. And given that Rule One of civil proceedings is that there is no point in suing someone who hasn?t got any money, well, draw your own conclusions...

[grahame]

I have read the terms, Robin, and there is no commitment on the part of the issuer to actually run any trains at all on which a discount is offered.  Legally, the railway could have shut totally from 1st April to 1st October and would owe nothing back.  The reading was a few weeks back, but all the commitments needed were requirements on the customer with **** all on the rail industry. 

Morally, the question is more interesting advertising that "you can save money on visits to the grandkids, trips into town to catch a show, or weekends by the seaside ? as many times as you like" isn't really correct if you're then banned from taking those trips ...

[Robin Summerhill]

I have read the terms, Robin, and there is no commitment on the part of the issuer to actually run any trains at all on which a discount is offered.  Legally, the railway could have shut totally from 1st April to 1st October and would owe nothing back.  The reading was a few weeks back, but all the commitments needed were requirements on the customer with **** all on the rail industry. 

Morally, the question is more interesting advertising that "you can save money on visits to the grandkids, trips into town to catch a show, or weekends by the seaside ? as many times as you like" isn't really correct if you're then banned from taking those trips ...

I sense either goalpost moving or a healthy dose of devils advocay here 

If, as you say, the commitments needed were requirements on the customer with **** all on the rail industry, it begs the question why, if the deal is so bad, anybody would buy a railcard in the first place?.  The answer of course is that the deal is not so bad. I have already given examples of me saving over a third of the cost of my three year railcard on just two journeys since March, and a saving of over three times the cost of that card in one transaction last year. If that is a bad deal, Id like to see what a good one looks like in your opinion!

I thnk the argument about advertsing deliberately misses the point. The railway did not ban us from using trains and neither, come to that, did the government. We were told to only make essential journeys. If your journey was essneial than there was nothing stopping anyone from making it or using their raicard. I suspect hundreds, possibly thousands of people nationwide, did just that. Should they get a refund too?

And of course all the points you list, visits to the grandkids, trips into town to catch a show, or weekends by the seaside were either not possible due to theatres being closed and/or social distancing rules, neither of which are the railways fault. They were the fault of the pandemic and the government introding measures to arrest its spread  to save my life, your life and everybody elses life. So now you appear to be supporting a call for refunds to be given to people who didnt make journeys they would otherwise have made to do things rhey couldnt have done anyway because of the restrictions.

Hmmm...

[KenB]

My Senior Railcard was due for renewal 25/03/20, as was my wifes.  Normally we would have expected to receive an e-mail reminder with a link etc.  This year nothing. Something in the system guessed that days out by train were not going to be on our agenda.