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  • TWSW - wash up - ONLINE: June 26, 2020
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Author Topic: 26th June 2020, 16:00 TWSW - Summary of Zoom topics  (Read 687 times)
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« on: June 25, 2020, 08:09:05 am »

Webinar 8 - Conclusions from our 8 part series and your opportunity for a final word on any of the topics

About this Event

TWSW is inviting you to take part in the final and Summary session in our series of scheduled Zoom meetings.

These sessions have highlighted the dynamism and complexity of public transport networks. Thank you to all those groups who registered and took part.

The strength and insights of our guest speakers enabled robust discussions over our 7 previous sessions.

Thanks to: Paul Clifton, BBC Transport Correspondent; TIm Bellinger, Director of Policy, London TravelWatch; Claire Walters, CEO, Bus Users; Giles Fearnley, Managing Director, First Bus; Prof. Adrian Davis, UWE & Transport Research Institute; Cllr. Kye Dudd, "Bristol Cabinet Supremo"; Antonia Roberts- Deputy CEO, Como; Graham Ellis, Great Western Coffee Shop Forum; Alex Carter MD, First Bus South West; Jason Humm, Head of Transport, West of England Combined Authority

TravelWatch SouthWest, Chair, Christopher Irwin will run this summary session and invite your reflections around our principle conclusions.

Sign up at

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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2020, 05:46:11 am »

Webinar 8 - Conclusions from our 8 part series and your opportunity for a final word on any of the topics

About this Event

TWSW is inviting you to take part in the final and Summary session in our series of scheduled Zoom meetings.

Open for sign-up until shortly before the event at 16:00 today (26.6.20).  Even if you have not attended any of the previous sessions, I suspect you'll find this a very useful summary session whether you're a community volunteer, a rail industry person, government (central or local) or 'just' a passenger.

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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2020, 02:13:58 pm »

Chris Irwin

At the conclusion of 7 weeks ... much of what we have come up with is self evident but good to have it confirmed.

When we started two months ago, we didn't have too much shape on how we would emerge from lockdown (hence the illustration of people wearing space suites for the early meetings) but now it is getting clearer. I was due to travel to the Scillies as lockdown came ... couldn't; they are re-opening in a week or so now.

We may be shocked at the picture we see of Bournemouth but there are many other places to go.

Some lessons learned

** We can significantly reduce pollution BUT London was back up again last week and is just 8% below the pre-shutdown level - How can we retain the improvement?

** The shutdown and COVID have effected vulnerable and marginisalisd groups disproportionately. It's not just BME groups, but also the disabled, and those on low wages and in poor housing - who also have a far higher use of public transport.  The crisis has increased and not decreased the divide between society's haves and have-nots.

** Yes we can. When 'push came to shove', the Government and the DfT can move quickly and do amazing things if they want to.

** Stakeholders need consulting. There is a once in a generation change, but also a law of unintended consequences. It is very wise - even if done quickly - to consult with / ask the various parties involved to get it right on the ground

** Joined up journeys. Not just take the car (but that has a place) but also the criticality of connections. Joining up information and fares / ticketing too - making the whole thing attractive

** Multiple modes.   We should not let our love of one mode 'blind' us to other modes - they all have their place.

** An effective transport network.   It will only work if integrated

** Community Added Value.  Noting the success of Community Rail Partnership / volunteers.  Would other parts of transport benefit from better / more local community involvement e.g. buses?

** How to address changes that are needed when the system lock in the status quo?  Long franchises tend not to keep up with needs [[ but then short franchises don't invest - G ]]

** Pop up initiatives can be counterproductive.  And take a look at city space where some 50% of land area may be given over to roads and car parking

David Redgewell

Concern at lack of money to rural with 20% of bus network not operating
Core services running just 07:00 to 19:30 Monday to Friday, again no rural or orbital bus
Rural rail getting better (quote HoW example); still some load safety issues
[[CI says look forward 5 - 10 years David]]
Wrong (David used word "criminal") to be cutting up HSTs when XC trains overload and distancing is needed
Stronger role for authorise (local)
Seeing end of franchising.  Train operators looking for (a further?) 18 months of money

Jim H

"If you're using the bus, that's a failure" - Maggie.  Now updated to Johnson?
New people not using the bus; apologies though to Manchester.  Alleged high cost
Should be common good but lack of drive from Bristol Politicians
There is an opportunity now but should not be taken to the exclusion of others.

Cate Mack

5-10 year plans might look good but short-term is piecemeal.
What is the vision at that time scale?  Integration needed
National strategy needed looking at local transport support
Local details are obligatory
Things are floundering between the three levels

Luke Farley

Concern at what / how things will be funded in 2 to 5 years time.
What has been spent of late needs to be paid back


Public value needs to be used in evaluation of transport as now happens in agriculture - not just rail finance.
Social, medical, health, infrastructure, etc, in financial appraisal
Frustration at developers - just require "x" garages per house but no bus obligation to community
CI: Isn't pollution control also factor for urban

R Williams (Reading Buses)

In some ways urban lends balance v equality
Support for buses is milage based so faster rural services do better than congested urban ones

Mike Lambden

Concern for developer supported buses when section 106 funding runs out

Richard Gamble

[In answer to "is WC going bust?"] Media Hype; future is hard to predict at present
Must not be distracted by the short term; +ve delivery, Link and Ride
Make life [changes / choices?]. Integration and Opportunity.

CI / Phil Sankey

Boundary issues of local authorities and operator areas.
Different Provision / approach of First v Stagecoach
Also live in Dorset, nearest train station in Devon

Bob as Verona

So much differs between council areas
look at old Dorset (that included Bournemouth and Poole) v new rural Dorset
Some look at better attitude of Devon

David Redgewell

The nonsense of different authorities
Used to work well when SWRDA controlled the regional but grant
Not working in the South West at present. Look at North, Manchester, Birmingham
But in SW the absurdity of Dorset and Bristol in one area and Somerset in a different one

Andy Birkett

Regional good but not working on our area. "WECA is a debacle".
Cutting rural bus grants and services through Labour areas

Paul Johnson

Rural Connections v Urban - there are bit differences
"We have dealt with SW" says Whitehall when really meaning they have made Bristol an authority
Trains do not originate in our region - pass through with no regional structures
People will use trams rather than buses. Bristol tram was a missed opportunity

[CI notes strong tram advocate groups at our meetings]

Bryony Chetwode

Looking at [?] journeys. Geography is changing, use of cities varies.
Is tram right solution as it's too guided. Does it go right place.
Point to collaboration.
User groups help with decisions, rather than unexpected hand-downs and unintended consequences

Jim H

All of us here are motivated but 90% of the people I know only use the bus into a town and don't really know whats around.  Need to change hearts and minds.

Agree PJ and DR; need to fight for our own area.  Comparison of Manchester doing well and Liverpool not.

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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2020, 02:33:03 pm »

(many) Attendees ... signed in ...

15:59:09    From  Cllr Nick Thwaites : Good afternoon to all
15:59:10    From  John Hamley : Hello John Hamley. Melksham
15:59:16    From  Mike Lambden : Good afternoon from Mike Lambden, the Bus Archive.
15:59:19    From  Verona : Good afternoon, Bob Driscoll WATAG
15:59:40    From  Andy Burkitt - SERA SW : Andy Burkitt - SERA & ABT Training - afternoon to all
15:59:55    From  Cllr Nick Thwaites : Nick Thwaites SWT council
15:59:55    From  Paul Johnson : Good afternoon everyone best wishes Paul Chair Transwilts
15:59:57    From  Jacqueline Walkden : Jackie Walkden, Bristol FOE
15:59:59    From  Graham Ellis : Melksham Rail User Group and Coffee Shop forum. 
16:00:08    From  richarr.gamble : Richard Gamble Wiltshire Council & TWSW
16:00:09    From  Dick Daniel : Dick Daniel - BATA
16:00:28    From  Philip Sankey : Philip Sankey WATAG from Lyme Regis
16:01:14    From  JimH : Good afternoon, JimH Secretariat, All Party Parliamentary Light Rail Group and I can answer all of your tram related questions or know a man who does ! Email
16:01:45    From  Andrew.Ardley : Andrew Ardley, Regional Development Manager, South Western Railway
16:02:02    From  Luke Farley : Luke Farley, Assistant Regional Development Manager, Great Western Railway
16:02:12    From  Jasper Selwyn : Jasper Selwyn  Devizes
16:02:18    From  Dixie Darch : Cllr Dixie Darch, Som West and Taunton Council.
16:02:24    From  Robert Williams : Robert Williams, Chief Executive Officer, Reading Buses
16:03:03    From  Catherine Mack : CAte MAck here
16:03:03    From  Nick : Hi everyone - from Nick Farthing Hampshire Community Rail Partnership
16:04:38    From  Stuart Phelps : Stuart Phelps - Planning Group - Bristol
16:05:05    From  David Redgewell : David Redgewell Bristol mayor transport board and Bristol disability forum trustee and south Gloucestershire council disability trustees

And what they wrote during the session

16:05:47    From  David Redgewell : lack of money for rural public transport bus and rail network
16:07:58    From  Jacqueline Walkden : Bristol went above WHO safe levels for pollution last week.
16:08:29    From  JimH : Where is the inclusion of Non Exhaust Emissions (Road Tyre Dust) Defra July 2020 and Micro Plastics from Roads Defra May 2020
16:10:28    From  Jasper Selwyn : Government discouragement of using public transport is not a good start.
16:12:08    From  JimH : mode of Choice comment, the car in its present form is killing us and in the urban area should be outlawed.
16:13:35    From  David Redgewell : social distancing is still in force on public transport
16:13:58    From  Andy Burkitt - SERA SW : In Bristol REGULAR Bus users are now using their cars instead as it is 'What the Government Suggests - s less people in Bristol BUT worse air
16:14:15    From  David Redgewell : as covid 19 is in the south west of England
16:15:07    From  David Redgewell : mean rural bus service are not operating at present in weca mayoral transport authority or North Somerset council area
16:15:09    From  Dick Daniel : A lot of people are ‘addicted’ to their cars. Just explaining the true cost will make no difference.
16:16:36    From  Nick : Without getting into the debate about COV19, if one looks at those currently using PT to get to beach, etc, they are mainly young persons without access to a car - these people are the future and will need to have decent rail and bus services. Can we not get too bogged down  and start working on the positive side of PT and...........not be too aggressive towards the motorist? - that will get us nowhere
16:17:17    From  JimH : Edinburgh has by enlarged priced a significant number of private car journeys. Edinburgh Tram Airport to the City Centre is only 9.5 miles long and carried 7.5 million passengers
16:23:32    From  Roma : from Roma to everyone.  Longer term could not rural bus/train services be integrated proactively with fringe urban services to improve timetables for these areas
16:23:41    From  Mike Lambden : It is the Mayor of London who keeps hammering the avoid public transport message.
16:24:01    From  Dick Daniel : Planning for 5-10 years.
WECA says 'Our Joint Local Transport Plan aims to ensure that transport is carbon neutral by 2030.'
That is only 10 years away, so it will take radical action and get a lot quicker at implementing it.
16:25:35    From  John Hamley : Once people have restarted travelling e.g. to work, by car (it is recommended not to use PT) when things relax somewhat it will be very difficult if not impossible to make them change to PT, even where its cheaper or quicker.
16:26:00    From  David Redgewell : weca mayoral transport authority North Somerset council and the 2 mayor s are looking at light rail system for Greater Bristol and Bath city region its was said again by mayor Reece this morning
16:26:04    From  Andy Burkitt - SERA SW : Dick, if you believe anything on PUBLIC TRANSPORT from WECA or Tim Bowles then you are a more optimistic person than I am
16:26:58    From  JimH : Epidemics are a feature to come in this century and trams can futureproof our connectivity and wealth in that time to come
16:27:29    From  David Redgewell : weca mayoral transport authority need s restructuring with North Somerset into a public transport Authority with full power s
16:28:59    From  Liz Pole : Benefits in agriculture allow them to shift the subsidy from farmers and food production to landowners. If you want public goods at the heart of transport policy let all the financial subsidy and profit go to vested interest, and you will get this government behind it.
16:29:03    From  David Redgewell : the government is carrying out value  for money test on public transport system s in England at present  remember local authorities are in financial trouble at present.
16:29:46    From  David Redgewell : we need one transport board for the south west England not 2 board a
16:30:36    From  David Redgewell : Bristol city council getting money for public transport system in planning permission scheme now
16:30:46    From  Andy Burkitt - SERA SW : Unless local authorities get MUCH more money as they are broke I am not sure there will be ANY REAL money for Pulic Transport
16:31:10    From  Mike Lambden : On Cate's point about developers and public transport, currently in my town most of the local journeys are funded by 106 money.
16:31:27    From  Catherine Mack : But remember Chris that urban areas also provide the bulk of services for rural people, to which they often travel by car!
16:32:00    From  David Redgewell : the area at Filton is funding alot of public transport in south Gloucestershire council and Bristol city council area just resently
16:32:49    From  Philip Sankey : Travel does not stop at admin boundaries eg Bridport - Yeovil falling between Dorset & Somerset - so planning should not be parochial.
16:33:05    From  Jacqueline Walkden : Transport is the one of the sticking points in reaching the government's zero carbon. If they are to meet that target there needs to be clean public transport. Switching to EV private cars alone will not reduce emissions enough.
16:33:38    From  David Redgewell : weca mayoral transport authority could not get rural bus grant
16:34:50    From  Catherine Mack : Rural services may be subsidised, but roads are hugely subsidised to a far  greater extent: this is why joined up planning is essential
16:35:53    From  Luke Farley : We've had fundamental damage done to our industry in that the virus has made people scared to congregate too closely, which by default rules out public transport for them. I think this is regardless of government's messaging. The reconstruction of this faith will take years and should be coupled with effort to de-carbonise personal transport.
16:36:25    From  Bryony Chetwode : luke Farley I agree
16:37:32    From  Roma : From Roma to everyone.  If rural public transport users are sidelined a new disadvantaged group is created. 
16:37:43    From  David Redgewell : luke I agree
16:38:28    From  David Phillips : CV-19 has also altered perceptions about the choice between urban living and rural/suburbia with a garden. For years public transport advocates have see "high density" as a prerequisite for public transport. How do we proceed now?
16:38:33    From  David Redgewell : we need region transport authority like transport for the North
16:38:47    From  Bryony Chetwode : This comes back to collaboration on both counts
16:39:00    From  David Redgewell : south west region development agency worked on public transport
16:39:20    From  David Redgewell : Region government is important
16:39:26    From  Luke Farley : It all points to 'facilities' (schools, shops, halls) being included in housing development, reducing the need for travel in the first place.
16:39:27    From  Bryony Chetwode : As an organisation - should we be pushing harder on collaboration
16:39:39    From  Andy Burkitt - SERA SW : Regional Transport Agency is a way forward as long as not run with WECA
16:40:47    From  Robert Williams : The statutory obligation is the issue - at the moments it's basically zero and needs to require a certain level of transport for all in more definitive terms.
16:40:57    From  Catherine Mack : But  David that is why we need an overall vision  for the outcomes: that's what the Regional structure/Assembly delivered!
16:42:31    From  Stuart Phelps : Over 10 years the structure of the Political landscape will change. Technology gives everyone more and more opportunities to make direct decisions by voting. What if in 10 years we have moved to a greater direct democracy starting with the ability to un-elect Politicians?
16:43:03    From  Roma : From Roma to everyone  I agree that LAs have very different approaches when using their bus grants.  The three county councils I researched two years ago for the WI, each used funds differently from totally supporting tendered services to none.
16:43:06    From  Nick : Hi everyone - apologies - I have to say "cheerio" thanks for all of the meetings, good luck and have a great weekend.
16:43:42    From  Bryony Chetwode : this is coming back to a level of scrutiny
16:46:06    From  David Redgewell : south west  England Transport board has duties to work cross boundary working with other sub regions transport board s
16:46:57    From  Mike Lambden : Tram building in UK seems to be very complex due to regulation - just look at the time it has taken to add a couple of miles in Birmingham
16:47:15    From  David Redgewell : light rail system we bid to department for transport for Bristol and Bath city region now the bid in now
16:47:57    From  Andy Burkitt - SERA SW : Agree with Bryony but requires everyone in power to be well-intentioned
16:48:42    From  Andy Burkitt - SERA SW : Excellent John
16:48:43    From  David Redgewell : North transport authority co ordination is happening with other English regions and Transport for Scotland
16:50:10    From  Catherine Mack : And to add to John's point: look at the figures: 20% of adults without access to the car: they are largely forgotten as  a result - they have no voice. Even in rural areas, where the one car of a family on low income has t=goe to work the rest of the family is marooned: so how do they access the urban services?
16:50:22    From  David Redgewell : we need to keep money in moving into buses Coaches and railway systems light rail and ferries from the department for transport money runs out in August
16:50:35    From  David Redgewell : and September
16:50:51    From  David Redgewell : national Express Coaches in July

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