Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
End of through trains
Bristol to Waterloo - Why?

 
Please sign our petition
(more information)
 
Campaign links here
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 18:55 08 Dec 2021
* Covid vaccine passports 'devastating' for nightclubs
- Covid travel: Omicron hitting holiday bookings, says Tui
- Japanese billionaire blasts off to International Space Station
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 tomorrow - Award Event - CRN
10/12/21 - Final day, service to Bristol
19/01/22 - MTUG - regular meeting
08/03/22 - WWRUG AGM - B-o-A
Random Image
Train RunningCancelled
22:25 Plymouth to Exeter St Davids
Short Run
16:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
Additional 16:47 Plymouth to Penzance
18:42 Gloucester to Frome
20:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
21:52 Paignton to Exeter St Davids
Delayed
15:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
16:04 London Paddington to Penzance
18:23 Par to Newquay
19:50 Paignton to Exeter St Davids
PollsThere are no open or recent polls
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
December 08, 2021, 07:09:42 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[134] Overhead Electrification Plans
[100] Storm Barra
[67] Advent quiz - day 8 - Where is this
[46] Advent quiz - day 7 Railway Bridges Quiz
[34] Unscheduled stop
[30] Through service - Bristol to London (Waterloo) via Trowbridge ...
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Poll
Question: How will Exeter's first train under electric power reach there?  (Voting closed: July 06, 2020, 08:02:57 am)
25kv overhead from London - 11 (24.4%)
25kv overhead Devon Metro (local network) - 1 (2.2%)
Third Rail from Waterloo - 2 (4.4%)
Some other way - 0 (0%)
Won't happen within 15 years - 31 (68.9%)
Total Voters: 44

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5
  Print  
Author Topic: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?  (Read 9686 times)
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4516



View Profile
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2020, 04:44:18 pm »

This has high potential!  Wink

Although they're going to need more than 50km range if they're going to be used on most of the network. Interesting though to see the competition between this, hydrogen, bi-mode, OHLE and possibly third-rail.

In my view, hydrogen is not a serious contender, it is inherently expensive, explosive, bulky to store, and challenging to handle at fuelling stations.

Neither in my view is any significant expansion of third rail a serious contender, for reasons already given.

That leaves bi-mode (25Kv and diesel)
Or 25Kv throughout
Or bi-mode (25Kv and battery)
As serious possibilities. A battery ONLY train seems unlikely due to lack of flexibility, and the need for large shore supplies for charging, rather than use of existing 25Kv infrastructure for charging.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4516



View Profile
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2020, 04:47:10 pm »

Does member Broadgage have shares in this!  Grin Grin Grin

No, why would I want shares ?
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3675


View Profile
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2020, 05:19:32 pm »

This has high potential!  Wink

Although they're going to need more than 50km range if they're going to be used on most of the network. Interesting though to see the competition between this, hydrogen, bi-mode, OHLE and possibly third-rail.

In my view, hydrogen is not a serious contender, it is inherently expensive, explosive, bulky to store, and challenging to handle at fuelling stations.
So is all that petrol you keep for friends in your shed!

I also think hydrogen seems an unlikely contender but several manufacturers, such as Toyota, are pursuing fuel cells as a serious power source for rail, road and I think marine too. So I guess we'll have to wait and see; the question is how long do we wait?
Logged

Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
rogerw
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1174



View Profile
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2020, 05:49:54 pm »

The trains on this line are due for replacement (hopefully) within the next 10 years. It would seem logical to electrify at 25kv west of Basingstoke with dual voltage stock. As Reading to Basingstoke is likely to be electrified the addition of Southampton to Salisbury would give an electric route for the many container trains heading north without the complication of any work on the direct line through Winchester
Logged

I like to travel.  It lets me feel I'm getting somewhere.
PhilWakely
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1644



View Profile
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2020, 06:10:35 pm »

The trains on this line are due for replacement (hopefully) within the next 10 years. It would seem logical to electrify at 25kv west of Basingstoke with dual voltage stock. As Reading to Basingstoke is likely to be electrified the addition of Southampton to Salisbury would give an electric route for the many container trains heading north without the complication of any work on the direct line through Winchester

If Redbridge to Basingstoke via Laverstock and Andover is to become the regular routeing for freight, would it not mean either a reversal at Redbridge or the addition of a western entrance to the freightliner terminal?
Logged
rogerw
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1174



View Profile
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2020, 07:00:06 pm »

As far as I'm aware there is already a western entrance to the freightliner terminal,unless it has recently been removed.
Logged

I like to travel.  It lets me feel I'm getting somewhere.
PhilWakely
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1644



View Profile
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2020, 07:47:26 pm »

As far as I'm aware there is already a western entrance to the freightliner terminal,unless it has recently been removed.

Sorry, you are correct. For some reason I though it was eastbound only, but I've just looked on google maps and seen the layout quite clearly.  Embarrassed  Embarrassed
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5955


View Profile
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2020, 03:09:22 pm »

I wonder if this would be the answer - or at least the first answer likely to happen, though the timescale of any retrofit programme is not clear from this press release from Hitachi Rail:
Quote
Press release - 06 July 2020 07:30
Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive agreement opens way for battery trains across Britain

Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive agreement opens way for battery trains across Britain

Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive Innovation have signed an exclusive agreement to develop battery packs to power zero-emission trains and create a battery hub in the North East.
...

Following on from that announcement earlier this year, Hitachi are now going to put some batteries into some of GWR (Great Western Railway)'s 802s. This was behind this morning's news items, based on this press release from Hitachi:
Quote
Hitachi and Eversholt Rail to develop GWR intercity battery hybrid train ? offering fuel savings of more than 20%
 
  •   Batteries replacing an engine to cut fuel usage and reduce carbon emissions
  •   First time a modern UK (United Kingdom) intercity train, in passenger service, will use alternative fuel
  •   Tri-mode train can improve air quality and reduce noise across South West route?s non-electrified stations

In a UK-first, Hitachi Rail and Eversholt Rail have signed an exclusive agreement aimed at bringing battery power ? and fuel savings of more than 20% ? to the modern Great Western Railway Intercity Express Trains that carry passengers between Penzance and London.

The 36 longer, faster trains ? with their iconic sleek design ? have already transformed journeys for passengers in south west England, since their introduction by GWR in August 2018. Now the partnership between Hitachi, the train builder and maintainer, and Eversholt Rail, the trains? owner, will develop a plan to install batteries on a modern Intercity Express Train. The trial will demonstrate that the innovation meets passenger service and safety standards.

The line between the South West and London is only partially electrified, with the majority of the 300 mile journey requiring diesel power. The partnership is looking at batteries replacing a diesel engine as a power source on an existing Hitachi-built five-carriage train ? currently known as a bi-mode for its ability to switch seamlessly between electric and diesel power.

Adding a battery creates an electric-diesel-battery hybrid train (tri-mode). On non-electrified sections of the route, the batteries will supplement the power of the engines to reduce fuel usage and carbon emissions by more than 20%. Whereas when travelling in and out of stations and surrounding urban areas, the train would rely on battery power only. This has the benefit of improving air quality and dramatically reduce noise levels, creating a more pleasant environment for passengers and people living nearby.

GWR?s Intercity Express Train fleet currently calls at 15 non-electrified stations on its journey between Penzance and London, all of which could benefit from trains running on battery-only power.

Hitachi Rail will draw upon market-leading expertise in Japan, and the support of its battery partner ? Hyperdrive Innovation. The two North East-based companies reached an agreement in July 2020 to create and develop battery packs for mass production at Hyperdrive?s HYVE facility in Sunderland, the UK?s first independent battery pack manufacturing facility.

The projected improvements in battery technology ? particularly in power output and charge ? create opportunities to replace incrementally more diesel engines on long distance trains. With the ambition to create a fully electric-battery intercity train ? that can travel the full journey between London and Penzance ? by the late 2040s, in line with the UK?s 2050 net zero emissions target.

Installing battery technology on trains can complement electrification and helps to improve the business case for upgrades that can level-up the South West and provide a low emission alternative to domestic air travel.

That reads as if they plan to do a trial, though perhaps even that depends on a bit of prior work on the batteries.
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4516



View Profile
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2020, 03:18:54 pm »

I remain a bit doubtful about battery power for London to Penzance or similar length journeys.
I see a bright future for battery trains on secondary or lightly used routes, and on main lines that are substantially electrified but not perhaps throughout.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5955


View Profile
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2020, 03:24:57 pm »

I remain a bit doubtful about battery power for London to Penzance or similar length journeys.
I see a bright future for battery trains on secondary or lightly used routes, and on main lines that are substantially electrified but not perhaps throughout.

I'd be more than a bit doubtful about that. Fortunately it's not part of what Hitachi are proposing.
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4516



View Profile
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2020, 05:19:27 pm »

Yes, I know that the initial proposal is to fit a battery instead of one of the engines on an IET (Intercity Express Train). It has however been suggested that this an initial test with a view to eventually achieving a fully battery powered inter city train.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Jamsdad
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 151


View Profile Email
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2020, 05:24:36 pm »

There are more than 15 non-electrified stations  that IET (Intercity Express Train) call at between Paddington and Penzance. 10 in Cornwall, 9 in Devon, 2 in Somerset , 2 in Wilts , possibly more if you are pedantic. Where does the 15 come from?
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5955


View Profile
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2020, 05:30:02 pm »

Yes, I know that the initial proposal is to fit a battery instead of one of the engines on an IET (Intercity Express Train). It has however been suggested that this an initial test with a view to eventually achieving a fully battery powered inter city train.

I don't read it that way, though it's rather ambiguous. It says "fully electric-battery intercity train", and that could be fully electric with a battery as well rather than a diesel. And the wires might have to go a bit further - looking at the distances involved, the stored energy requirement is a tad on the humungous side for going all the way.
Logged
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 8956


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2020, 05:56:50 pm »

Where does the 15 come from?

The standard calling pattern of through trains.
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
PhilWakely
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1644



View Profile
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2020, 06:51:29 pm »

Using only battery power, without diesel, over the Devon banks could be an interesting challenge - whether talking about either the GWR (Great Western Railway) or SWR» (South Western Railway - about) route. With stops at Totnes on the GWR route and Axminster on the SWR route, both 'in between' severe banks, the batteries would need to be powerful. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 07:43:17 pm by PhilWakely » Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page