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Question: How will Exeter's first train under electric power reach there?  (Voting closed: July 06, 2020, 08:02:57 am)
25kv overhead from London - 11 (24.4%)
25kv overhead Devon Metro (local network) - 1 (2.2%)
Third Rail from Waterloo - 2 (4.4%)
Some other way - 0 (0%)
Won't happen within 15 years - 31 (68.9%)
Total Voters: 45

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Author Topic: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?  (Read 1453 times)
PhilWakely
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2020, 11:43:02 am »

Having lived in Pinhoe for all bar three years of my life, I have used every available opportunity to push for improvements on the Mule. I even used my S' Level Statistics and Degree in Statistics to produce projects on re-doubling the line or using better powered locomotives to improve timing! Call my a cynic if you will, but HS2 will be fully operational to Birmingham before we'll see any major improvements to the Mule. Yes, we may well see a Tisbury-style loop just east of Whimple to enable the Devon Metro to improve local services, but, unless something major causes significant, long-lasting disruption between Exeter and Castle Cary, I cannot see anything else being done to the Mule in the foreseeable future. It is likely that the Tories will promise something to their voters in 2023, but these will be quickly forgotten.
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rogerpatenall
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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2020, 04:32:13 pm »

Well. I have ticked the not in 15 years box. However, you can argue that electric trains are already running to Exeter. Perhaps the thread should have been headed 'Electric traction to Exeter'?
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JontyMort
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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2020, 08:59:30 pm »

Well. I have ticked the not in 15 years box. However, you can argue that electric trains are already running to Exeter. Perhaps the thread should have been headed 'Electric traction to Exeter'?

But even that won’t work - the traction is electric in both modes.
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grahame
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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2020, 09:12:34 pm »

Looks like I have "goofed" on the description ... and thinking about it, my first visit to Exeter by train must have been some 50 years ago ... electric traction all the way from Brighton, with the train having its own diesel generators carriages 1, 6, 7 and 12 and borrowed for the Saturday Only service off the Hastings to Cannon Street Monday to Friday trains.
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« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2020, 07:21:13 am »

Here is the ORR position on 3rd rail extension.
It places the onus of safety with the organisation promoting the extension. It specifically mentions the time taken for isolations but NR South East and presumably Wessex are installing modular isolation systems that make it both safer and quicker.

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/17621/dc-electrification-policy-statement.pdf

NR Southern Region (formally Wessex Route and SE Route) are installing a system remotely controlled "Negative Shorting Circuiting Devices" (NSCD) these avoid the need for staff to go on to the track to test and the apply manual straps.  The NSCD are not currently operated by the ECRs but by a facility near the work sites.

The NSCD do make it safer for the isolation staff and does speed the process up.


I would not put forward the idea of wholesale additions to the 3rd Rail network but infills such as Oxted and the North Downs line need to be considered. The other outpost, Ashford to Hastings, would be better done at 25kV so that it could be served from HS1 at Ashford.

Ashford - Hastings electrification at 25kV has more or less been ruled out, due to some significant engineering challenges -

Currently there is no direct track connection from the Hasting line to HS1
The OLE wiring across Ashford from the SE side to NE side
The A/C - DC interface at Ore

Options being looked at are bi-mode battery / Third Rail, if the above could be funded / overcome then the 395 could operate the Hastings / London services
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« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2020, 02:50:31 pm »

The much mentioned - by Network Rail anyway - rolling programme of 25kV electrification must proceed. The first fairly immediate step on the B&H should be wiring to Bedwyn, so the IET's can be replaced by 387's. Follow that with electrification in stages to Westbury (new electric service to include the projected Devizes Parkway station), Taunton & Exeter.

The electrification project teams have enough recent practice, particularly in terms of what not to do, on this route to complete the work in 5-7 years.

(At the same time perhaps the DfT & NR would care to remove their collective head from the orifice in which it currently resides and authorise full completion of the wiring on the routes to BRI.)
I would suggest that replacing IETs by Class 387s on the Bedwyns would affect line capacity between Paddington and Reading. The 387s have a 110mph top speed rather than the 125mph of practically every other train using the Mains between Paddington and Reading and this will affect pathing and line capacity. In the 2019 timetable trains are scheduled to leave Paddington and two minute headways, with the maximum being five minutes there being, IIRC, some 16 departures per hour. Introducing even slightly slower trains on this stretch, even if there is only one per hour, will affect punctuality.

I can't see it happening.
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eightf48544
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« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2020, 03:04:02 pm »

If Bedwyn/Westbury  is electrified then IETs could still be used on the services
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southwest
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« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2020, 11:51:11 pm »

The much mentioned - by Network Rail anyway - rolling programme of 25kV electrification must proceed. The first fairly immediate step on the B&H should be wiring to Bedwyn, so the IET's can be replaced by 387's. Follow that with electrification in stages to Westbury (new electric service to include the projected Devizes Parkway station), Taunton & Exeter.

The electrification project teams have enough recent practice, particularly in terms of what not to do, on this route to complete the work in 5-7 years.

(At the same time perhaps the DfT & NR would care to remove their collective head from the orifice in which it currently resides and authorise full completion of the wiring on the routes to BRI.)
I would suggest that replacing IETs by Class 387s on the Bedwyns would affect line capacity between Paddington and Reading. The 387s have a 110mph top speed rather than the 125mph of practically every other train using the Mains between Paddington and Reading and this will affect pathing and line capacity. In the 2019 timetable trains are scheduled to leave Paddington and two minute headways, with the maximum being five minutes there being, IIRC, some 16 departures per hour. Introducing even slightly slower trains on this stretch, even if there is only one per hour, will affect punctuality.

I can't see it happening.

Extend the Reading to Newbury stopper, then replace the Paddington - Bedwyn stopper with more Exeter/Taunton/Westbury trains.
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« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2020, 07:06:07 am »

The much mentioned - by Network Rail anyway - rolling programme of 25kV electrification must proceed. The first fairly immediate step on the B&H should be wiring to Bedwyn, so the IET's can be replaced by 387's. Follow that with electrification in stages to Westbury (new electric service to include the projected Devizes Parkway station), Taunton & Exeter.

The electrification project teams have enough recent practice, particularly in terms of what not to do, on this route to complete the work in 5-7 years.

(At the same time perhaps the DfT & NR would care to remove their collective head from the orifice in which it currently resides and authorise full completion of the wiring on the routes to BRI.)
I would suggest that replacing IETs by Class 387s on the Bedwyns would affect line capacity between Paddington and Reading. The 387s have a 110mph top speed rather than the 125mph of practically every other train using the Mains between Paddington and Reading and this will affect pathing and line capacity. In the 2019 timetable trains are scheduled to leave Paddington and two minute headways, with the maximum being five minutes there being, IIRC, some 16 departures per hour. Introducing even slightly slower trains on this stretch, even if there is only one per hour, will affect punctuality.

I can't see it happening.

Mixing 387 and 800 in a service pattern is all about flighting, putting a 387 on fast with a 800 on a Slough stopper flighted together lowers the impact.  Also the difference in acceleration and braking between the two is not big as it was between 165/6 and 253/4

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grahame
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« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2020, 08:46:29 am »

Poll closed

25kv overhead from London   - 11 (24.4%)
25kv overhead Devon Metro (local network)   - 1 (2.2%)
Third Rail from Waterloo   - 2 (4.4%)
Some other way   - 0 (0%)
Won't happen within 15 years   - 31 (68.9%)

So - let me see. 

If you asked to place a bet (hypothetical - I am not licensed nor interested) on there being trains running in and out of an Exeter Station under electric power by July 2035, I could offer you odds:
7/1 for overhead catenary 25kv from London
40/1 for third rail electric from London
80/1 for their being local 25kv electric services only
200/1 for there being something else

Sadly, if you wanted to bet on there being no electric trains (although of course internal transmission could be by way of electricity from diesel, hydrogen, nuclear, battery, steam generator, or passenger pedal sources) I could only offer odds of 5/2 on - returning each Ł1 stake and paying you just 40p winnings.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 01:03:21 pm by grahame » Logged

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stuving
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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2020, 06:22:00 pm »

I wonder if this would be the answer - or at least the first answer likely to happen, though the timescale of any retrofit programme is not clear from this press release from Hitachi Rail:
Quote
Press release - 06 July 2020 07:30
Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive agreement opens way for battery trains across Britain

Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive agreement opens way for battery trains across Britain

Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive Innovation have signed an exclusive agreement to develop battery packs to power zero-emission trains and create a battery hub in the North East.

The two North East manufacturers will now accelerate the creation of batteries that can be mass-produced to provide emission-free power for hundreds of battery trains across the UK.

With almost two-thirds (58%) of the UK’s 20,000 mile rail network not electrified and with the Government setting ambitious decarbonisation targets, Hitachi Rail analysis estimates the potential market for Hyperdrive and Hitachi’s battery technology is over 400 trains.

This agreement is an important step towards manufacturing batteries at Hyperdrive’s HYVE facility in Sunderland, and then installing them just 20 miles away at Hitachi Rail’s train-building factory in Newton Aycliffe, County Durham.

Hitachi has identified its fleets of 275 trains as potential early recipients of the batteries for use in the UK, as well as installing them on new metro and intercity trains that will be needed in the coming years to replace ageing diesel fleets.

Battery trains produce no greenhouse gases, air pollution and are a far quieter, offering passengers cleaner air in stations, less noise disruption and a carbon-free way to travel. Installing batteries on to existing fleets can also extend their range and allow passengers to reach stations on non-electrified branch lines without having to change train.

A widespread adoption of battery train technology could be a major boost for industry in the UK, creating a market for Hyperdrive to increase its manufacturing capability up to 30,000 battery packs per year and double the number of jobs at its Sunderland factory.

Development of the UK’s first independent battery pack manufacturing facility will drive costs down and for the first time offer domestic production of batteries for rail, automotive, construction and energy sectors.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 10:08:35 pm by stuving » Logged
Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2020, 06:47:54 pm »

This has high potential!  Wink

Although they're going to need more than 50km range if they're going to be used on most of the network. Interesting though to see the competition between this, hydrogen, bi-mode, OHLE and possibly third-rail.
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« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2020, 08:44:39 am »

Does member Broadgage have shares in this!  Grin Grin Grin
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johnneyw
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« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2020, 10:25:14 am »

It sounds like Hitachi and Co have come to the conclusion that Vivarail came to a few years ago.
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stuving
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« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2020, 04:01:56 pm »

It sounds like Hitachi and Co have come to the conclusion that Vivarail came to a few years ago.

The announcement was of just one commercial step in a long development process at Hitachi, looking at putting batteries in trains. Downpage it includes:
Quote
Hitachi has extensive battery train experience across the world. In 2016, Hitachi introduced one of the world’s first regional battery trains in Japan. The Dencha currently carries passengers on two routes in Japan, with a wire-free range of 50km.

In 2007, Hitachi Rail fitted a hybrid test train – known as a Class 43 HST – with batteries and ran over 100,000 km. The ‘Haybusa’ train produced no emissions out of stations and provided a 15% fuel saving.

And that experimental hybrid train in 2007 is described in this from Railway Gazette - you may recognise it as something else, though:


I guess the results of that didn't support the hybrid option for IEP (and hybrids have never offered much in trains anyway), but now batteries have moved on far enough make it worth planning their use as a primary power source, at least for shorter ranges..
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