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Poll
Question: How will Exeter's first train under electric power reach there?  (Voting closed: July 06, 2020, 08:02:57 am)
25kv overhead from London - 11 (24.4%)
25kv overhead Devon Metro (local network) - 1 (2.2%)
Third Rail from Waterloo - 2 (4.4%)
Some other way - 0 (0%)
Won't happen within 15 years - 31 (68.9%)
Total Voters: 44

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Author Topic: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?  (Read 10056 times)
stuving
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« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2020, 07:31:54 pm »

It's perhaps worth noting what NR» (Network Rail - home page)'s traction decarbonisation plans are for routes to and beyond Exeter, bearing in mind that came out just after the poll and comments about the thread's original question stopped.

The route rating has all GWR (Great Western Railway) and SWR» (South Western Railway - about) main lines marked for electrification (all at 25kV where new), with the GWR routes (and Basingstoke-Salisbury) labelled "core". From Salisbury, and past Exeter, is says "ancillary" which is explained rather than defined. Basically it means the benefit is lower, so it can't be justified until later on in the programme, and it will have to keep an interim solution until then. By then the relative merits of the alternatives may have changed, so it's better not to pick a final solution. I Imagine such mixed solutions as OLE (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") only up the banks would come into play during that interim.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 07:59:50 pm by stuving » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2020, 07:43:17 pm »

Using only battery power, with diesel, over the Devon banks could be an interesting challenge - whether talking about either the GWR (Great Western Railway) or SWR» (South Western Railway - about) route. With stops at Totnes on the GWR route and Axminster on the SWR route, both 'in between' severe banks, the batteries would need to be powerful. 

A good place to do a trial.
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« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2020, 07:50:09 pm »

Using only battery power, without diesel, over the Devon banks could be an interesting challenge - whether talking about either the GWR (Great Western Railway) or SWR» (South Western Railway - about) route. With stops at Totnes on the GWR route and Axminster on the SWR route, both 'in between' severe banks, the batteries would need to be powerful. 

The battery capacity between charging points will always be an issue, regen braking going down the banks of course can put some energy back into the battery
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« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2020, 08:23:13 pm »

The way I read it, 'fully battery-electric' means 'two modes of electricity': overhead and battery. Rather than purely battery. Though it might lead to developments which will see purely battery power being used on shorter, lower speed lines, some time in the future.
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ellendune
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« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2020, 09:29:13 pm »

Using only battery power, without diesel, over the Devon banks could be an interesting challenge - whether talking about either the GWR (Great Western Railway) or SWR» (South Western Railway - about) route. With stops at Totnes on the GWR route and Axminster on the SWR route, both 'in between' severe banks, the batteries would need to be powerful. 

But that is not what they are proposing.  Only battery power in urban areas.  Diesel elsewhere, though the batteries could help out on the banks.
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« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2020, 08:01:45 am »

Using only battery power, without diesel, over the Devon banks could be an interesting challenge - whether talking about either the GWR (Great Western Railway) or SWR» (South Western Railway - about) route. With stops at Totnes on the GWR route and Axminster on the SWR route, both 'in between' severe banks, the batteries would need to be powerful. 

But that is not what they are proposing.  Only battery power in urban areas.  Diesel elsewhere, though the batteries could help out on the banks.

I think the solution should be a "pump storage" system, that is the batteries are present all the time to provide the traction and domestic power.   

When running in an electrified area the batteries are charged and the traction and domestic power is proved by the electrification; regen braking supplementing this.

When running in non electrified areas the traction and domestic power is provided by the batteries, a prime mover (diesel, hydrogen etc) is run up to charge the batteries when required.

Possibly localised areas of electrification installed to provide additional power or battery charging, somewhere like Temple Meads for example where a train may lay over between trips
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2020, 09:44:37 am »

How much OLE (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") is there between Penzance and London? IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly) it's only once they join the GWML (Great Western Main Line) at Reading?

In any case, if this trial is successful, hopefully it could be used for Bristol-Thingley and the 'ugly wires in Bath' could be saved for another day.
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ray951
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« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2020, 09:56:02 am »

How much OLE (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") is there between Penzance and London? IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly) it's only once they join the GWML (Great Western Main Line) at Reading?

The wires extend to Newbury.
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2020, 10:21:59 am »

How much OLE (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") is there between Penzance and London? IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly) it's only once they join the GWML (Great Western Main Line) at Reading?

The wires extend to Newbury.
Of course! Thanks.
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ellendune
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« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2020, 02:29:19 pm »

In any case, if this trial is successful, hopefully it could be used for Bristol-Thingley and the 'ugly wires in Bath' could be saved for another day.

Not sure it would go all that way, the gap would have to be reduced a bit I think.
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stuving
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« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2020, 03:18:07 pm »

In any case, if this trial is successful, hopefully it could be used for Bristol-Thingley and the 'ugly wires in Bath' could be saved for another day.

Not sure it would go all that way, the gap would have to be reduced a bit I think.

What "it"? The initial plan announced is for one battery fitted to one 802/0. NR» (Network Rail - home page)'s "first base" core network for decarbonisation is OLE (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") to Exeter, and something beyond, and presumably we will reach something of that kind. The path from the trial to there could follow several routes, both in train systems and infrastructure.

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« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2020, 03:54:01 pm »

By 'successful' I was thinking as much of future development in battery technology as what's here today. But even this trial set up, if it can't go 30-odd miles it won't be much good between Newbury and Penzance!
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« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2020, 07:38:00 pm »

Fully battery powered trains are envisaged by Hitachi and GWR (Great Western Railway), according to a report on the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) website.

Quote
Plan for UK (United Kingdom) long-distance battery-powered trains


(C) PA (Public Address) - Hitachi Rail has launched a plan to operate trains on batteries, electricity and diesel

Long distance trains could run on battery power for the first time in the UK, a manufacturer has announced.

Hitachi Rail said Great Western Railway services between London Paddington and Penzance, Cornwall, could be powered by a combination of batteries, electricity and diesel.

Using battery power at the route's non-electrified stations will reduce fuel consumption by more than 20%, improve air quality and reduce noise levels.

Testing is expected to begin in 2022.

The line from Cornwall to London is only partially electrified, with the majority of the 300 mile route requiring diesel power.

The 36 intercity express trains used on the line are bi-modes, which switch between electric and diesel power.

The firm said it would be the first time a long-distance passenger service used an alternative power source in the UK.

It is hoped a full-battery powered intercity train could be developed by the late 2040s, Hitachi Rail added.
(Continues at source)

So. Only another 30 years or so, and no mention of a buffet car.
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« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2020, 09:09:04 pm »

In any case, if this trial is successful, hopefully it could be used for Bristol-Thingley and the 'ugly wires in Bath' could be saved for another day.

Not sure it would go all that way, the gap would have to be reduced a bit I think.

What "it"? The initial plan announced is for one battery fitted to one 802/0. NR» (Network Rail - home page)'s "first base" core network for decarbonisation is OLE (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") to Exeter, and something beyond, and presumably we will reach something of that kind. The path from the trial to there could follow several routes, both in train systems and infrastructure.



Electrification may become a simpler to install NR has changed its electrification design policy.  Some of the clearances, need to be able to maintain the OLE with adjacent line live and a number of other specifics required previously have been relaxed from being mandated everywhere to a Region / Route risk and performance based assessment for locations where it is not practical / beneficial to do.

A bit complex and techie to explain in a post here, sufficed to say lessons have been learned from the engineering of GWEP (Great Western Electrification Program)
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ellendune
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« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2020, 10:39:21 pm »

A bit complex and techie to explain in a post here, sufficed to say lessons have been learned from the engineering of GWEP (Great Western Electrification Program)

Lets hope the teams get the chance to stay together to use that learning rather than have a gap then have to learn it all over again. 
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