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Author Topic: HST derailment, near Stonehaven, 12th August 2020  (Read 23940 times)
broadgage
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« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2020, 20:06:23 »

Yes, derailed rail vehicles can be recovered by rail mounted cranes, or very exceptionally by a road crane.
In this particular case, most vehicles look beyond economic repair, and that together with the remote location suggests cutting up at the accident scene. It is easier to move the debris if cut up first.
No one is going to authorise major repairs to HST (High Speed Train) vehicles, much more economic to simply scrap them, and save alternative vehicles for re-use that would otherwise be scrapped.

I  recall a relatively modern class 66 loco that was derailed in a most inaccessible location. Recovery was ruled out as being virtually impossible, it was therefore dismantled at the scene with some components recovered for re-use and the remainder scrapped. The cheapest option would have been to simply abandon it, but that is not acceptable these days.

EDIT TO ADD (Automatic Dropping Device), post #59 that was made whilst I was typing, and the youtube link in post 59, shows the difficulties in a remote location.




« Last Edit: August 15, 2020, 20:17:11 by broadgage » Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2020, 20:27:23 »

Thanks for the answers.
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stuving
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« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2020, 20:29:50 »

It is perhaps worth a reminder that GSM-R (Global System for Mobile communications - Railway.) was engineered to provide continuous coverage over the whole network, and essentially it does that. The main coverage issues I heard about were due to interference from mobile phone (MNO) base stations close in distance and frequency, and have been resolved. The GSM-R base stations are pretty closely spaced - from West Carmont bridge I can see one to the west, before Carmont SB (Signal Box), one mile away and one to the east, before Fetteresso, three miles away. And it operates at 900 MHz, low enough that it goes round corners, reaching into dips and valleys, reasonably well.

Since it's been provided for the purpose, GSM-R has to be the primary communication resource under all circumstances. Mobile phones provide a good back-up, though not everywhere - and a rural cutting or river valley is likely to be a coverage gap. Trying too hard to provide a back-up for your back-up risks spending a lot on something that's never used, and then finding the first time it's really needed it's not usable because of some unforeseen common mode of failure.

It occurs to me that until forty years ago there were festoons of telegraph/phone wires along all our railways, on one or other side (the Up side here). A really serious accident was likely to knock those poles down and break the wires. That would have two effects - the signallers at each side would know something bad had happened, but would also be unable to communicate with each other at all. It's tempting to think there was a system of connecting to the wires at any point to raise the alarm or connect a telephone in an emergency, but (apart from a few tunnels) I don't think here ever was. Unless you could shin up a pole, that is.

If you electrified the line, the OLE (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") would - quite incidentally - provide something else to signal that it's been interfered with, of course.
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grahame
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« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2020, 08:03:53 »

There are aspects of this accident, such as elements of the reporting, which are being discussed in our "Frequent Posters" area at http://www.passenger.chat/23893 . I have no desire to give additional publicity to those involved in questionable practise hence follow ups on this aspect are their for established members; the purpose of this post / comment is to provide a link across to that part of the story. It also confirms to the public that, yes, the Coffee Shop team is aware of those elements of the story - we are not ignoring them, but we are not feeding their fires.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2020, 08:20:15 by grahame » Logged

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TonyK
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« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2020, 12:23:45 »

There are aspects of this accident, such as elements of the reporting, which are being discussed in our "Frequent Posters" area at http://www.passenger.chat/23893 . I have no desire to give additional publicity to those involved in questionable practise hence follow ups on this aspect are their for established members; the purpose of this post / comment is to provide a link across to that part of the story. It also confirms to the public that, yes, the Coffee Shop team is aware of those elements of the story - we are not ignoring them, but we are not feeding their fires.

I entirely agree, grahame. The RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) has come out with a surprisingly detailed initial report of what happened, probably to quell speculation. The minutiae will follow, along with a forensic examination of who did or did not do what, and we should wait for that.
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« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2020, 17:33:36 »

I'd expect the majority of the rolling stock apart from 43030 will be scrapped. It's questionable whether Scotrail will order for another set to be made given the covid downturn, I would like to see another HST (High Speed Train) come back into use.
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bradshaw
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« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2020, 20:07:14 »

Updated report from the RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) giving further information relating to landslip itself.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/passenger-train-derailment-near-carmont-updated-21082020
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stuving
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« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2020, 20:49:18 »

Updated report from the RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) giving further information relating to landslip itself.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/passenger-train-derailment-near-carmont-updated-21082020

That also gives the speed of the train as 70-75 mph, which is a surprise to me. As it was only going a few miles, and everyone's journey was ruined already, such speed was not needed. And as it was passing steep cuttings in an area where heavy rain had already caused one landslip, and no train had passed to observe the track for over two hours, a lower speed does seem a sensible precaution. I think this aspect of operations will be an important area for the investigation.
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eightonedee
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« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2020, 21:18:52 »

Notable is the amount of rainfall - 52mm or two inches in Imperial is an exceptional amount for the east side of Great Britain for just 4 hours (I always find percentage of monthly amounts unhelpful - it's not unusual in drier parts of Britain for the bulk of the rainfall in a month to fall on one or two wet days).

As Stuving says the speed in these exceptional conditions seems surprising 
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PhilWakely
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« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2020, 21:32:59 »

Updated report from the RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) giving further information relating to landslip itself.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/passenger-train-derailment-near-carmont-updated-21082020

That also gives the speed of the train as 70-75 mph, which is a surprise to me. As it was only going a few miles, and everyone's journey was ruined already, such speed was not needed. And as it was passing steep cuttings in an area where heavy rain had already caused one landslip, and no train had passed to observe the track for over two hours, a lower speed does seem a sensible precaution. I think this aspect of operations will be an important area for the investigation.

Notable is the amount of rainfall - 52mm or two inches in Imperial is an exceptional amount for the east side of Great Britain for just 4 hours (I always find percentage of monthly amounts unhelpful - it's not unusual in drier parts of Britain for the bulk of the rainfall in a month to fall on one or two wet days).

As Stuving says the speed in these exceptional conditions seems surprising 

I think this quote, posted on Facebook by the driver's widow, Stephanie Mccullough, warrants posting here............  [ edit / Grahame to add link ((here)) to the post, which is public ]
Quote
I thought I had to post this because of the recent posts on various news channels implying my lovely husband was at fault.
When Brett was at carmont, he was actually held there for 2 hours, when Brett was told to proceed back north he was told it was good to proceed at line speed that was 75mph, he was under that!! at this point in time the storm had past and the sun was shining, Brett did what he was told we know this because the “black box” recorded Brett’s speed that was under the speed limit and the communications between scotrail and Brett record everything!! we also know Brett saw the landslide because the emergence breaks were applied. Many people don’t know that you can’t just stop a train! When the breaks are applied it could take up to a mile to stop a train, it’s not instant like a car. I can’t stand people implying that my beautiful kind husband was to blame. He did everything he was told to do. I can assure you Brett loved his job and did everything by the book. Unfortunately coming round that corner there was nothing he could have done. Please don’t assume things if you don’t know how the railway works as it’s very different from driving a car. It’s extremely hurtful to think people are judging Brett when they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Nobody should go to work and not come home. I have 3 heartbroken children here who Brett adored. His family was his world and he cared so much about people. Nobody can say a bad word about my kind gentle husband. Steph x
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 00:44:53 by grahame » Logged
grahame
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« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2020, 21:49:00 »

I think this quote, posted on Facebook by the driver's widow, Stephanie Mccullough, warrants posting here............

Absolutely it warrant posting here.  It is a vivid reminder that we (the general community) really must not speculate let alone judge, but leave the analysis to the experts.   

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stuving
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« Reply #71 on: August 21, 2020, 23:14:28 »

Notable is the amount of rainfall - 52mm or two inches in Imperial is an exceptional amount for the east side of Great Britain for just 4 hours (I always find percentage of monthly amounts unhelpful - it's not unusual in drier parts of Britain for the bulk of the rainfall in a month to fall on one or two wet days).

Not so very exceptional, I think. I'm sure I've been caught in rainfall on over 50 mm in less than 4 hours more than once - and it caused local flash flooding in each case.

There is some new data on this in the Royal Met Society's "State of the UK (United Kingdom) Climate 2019" report, in the form of annual counts of the number occasions any recording station measures 50 mm or more of rain in one day (Figure 32 on p 32, numbered 28). If that rain is frontal it may spread over many hours, but if it is convective (i.e. thunderstorms) its peak intensity will be much shorter. The data don't come with information about that split (so assume it's 50-50), and - rather bizarrely - the number of stations is normalised to the mean over the period 1960-2019, but they don't say what that is.

However, there is another pretty graph (Figure A1.2a on p 63, numbered 59), from which it can be worked out that the incidence of this intense rain at lowland met stations is about 0.4 times per year - having gone up from 0.3 in 1960. Since station sites are representative of places in general, the same will be true elsewhere. So for the two inches in two hours kind of rain, we are talking - very roughly - about once per five years.
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grahame
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« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2020, 05:51:10 »

Updated report from the RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) giving further information relating to landslip itself.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/passenger-train-derailment-near-carmont-updated-21082020

The images in the latest report are higher resolution than displayed:
1. Annotated Google Map
2. Arial view of aftermath
3. Arial view of landslip site and landscape above
The last is of particular interest as it helps visualise the new material from the RAIB

Quote
In the area where the derailment occurred, on the left-hand side of the railway (in the direction of travel of the train) a slope rises steeply to a field which then slopes gently upwards away from the railway. A drain runs northwards along the lower edge of the field until it reaches an access chamber about 50 metres south of the landslip area, from where it runs diagonally down the steep slope, passing through two more access chambers, until it reaches an outfall structure at a track level ditch which takes water northwards towards Carron Water. The drain running diagonally consists of a 450 millimetre (18 inch) diameter plastic pipe laid at the bottom of a trench. After the drain was installed, the trench was filled with gravel. Water flowing from land above the railway washed some of this gravel onto the railway, together with some larger pieces of rock which had formed part of soil eroded from the sides of the trench.
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TonyK
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« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2020, 16:42:19 »


Absolutely it warrant posting here.  It is a vivid reminder that we (the general community) really must not speculate let alone judge, but leave the analysis to the experts.   


Couldn't agree more. If there was ever a situation where the general public doesn't know enough to be able to make a judgment, this is it.
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eightonedee
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« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2020, 17:24:58 »

To resume my meteorological discussion with Stuving, I think it is a bit of a jump to assume thar most or even a substantial number of the 500mm per day readings result from convectional rainfall. My guess is that most would be from the kind of conditions we experienced in the winter of 2013/4 when deep Atlantic depressions gave days of long  steady rain to fill the rain gauges.

Entirely anecdotal, but as someone who records rainfall at home and have done so for about 30 years (admittedly in a rain shadow where we get low annual totals and more than an inch a day usually occurs once or twice a year at most), I can only think of one occasion when we had an intense storm producing 2 inches in a few hours, namely the exceptional storm in July 2007. That produced flash flooding and damage on a scale I have not seen before or since.
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