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Author Topic: HST derailment, near Stonehaven, 12th August 2020  (Read 3835 times)
SandTEngineer
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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2020, 02:20:05 pm »

I don't think appropriate to post that photograph on here.  Its been removed from lots of other sites.
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broadgage
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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2020, 02:31:15 pm »

I don't think appropriate to post that photograph on here.  Its been removed from lots of other sites.

Not certain that I agree, in all but extreme cases I believe in freedom of speech, which customarily includes pictures as well as actual speech.
IMHO it is not generally appropriate to publish pictures of the dead or seriously injured, but I see no such in the image in the preceding post.
Nor should pictures that seriously invade privacy be published, for example of someone unclothed as a result of emergency or disaster, but again I see no such.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
grahame
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« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2020, 02:38:48 pm »

I don't think appropriate to post that photograph on here.  Its been removed from lots of other sites.

I have noted it in a private thread for those of us who look after moderation, but personally much more in line with Broadgage.

I note the picture was posted on the forum by one of our moderator team, so that makes three of us currently well versed and currently active posters.
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Phantom
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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2020, 03:27:28 pm »

Photo of one of the engines here

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12381187/train-aberdeenshire-stonehaven-derailed/
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southwest
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« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2020, 03:38:49 pm »

Very sad and worrying time for those involved and their families.  Important not to speculate about anything, especially as the media are using forum's as sources.  I do hope this isn't a "Concorde" moment for the HST after 42 years.
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TonyK
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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2020, 03:46:00 pm »

I don't think appropriate to post that photograph on here.  Its been removed from lots of other sites.

I posted, the picture initially, then removed it very soon afterwards. I thought long and hard and looked for confirmation before posting it again. It is in the public domain, and now shown on a number of bona fide news sites. I am not after an argument about free speech or anything, just explaining my reasoning. I was moved by it and the clearer understanding of what an awful event this is, but will keep watching, and may change my mind.
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Now, please!
bignosemac
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« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2020, 03:56:03 pm »

The Scotsman are now reporting "three feared dead," citing the Press Association, a fourth person is "missing." Cry
https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/stonehaven-three-feared-dead-after-scotrail-train-derailment-aberdeenshire-2939946

And their leader page has the image posted here earlier. What it shows is deeply troubling. One carriage upside down and one seemingly crushed above the window line.

EDIT. Apologies to the subsequent poster who quoted me. I thought I was editing my own post. I deleted the entire thing in error. Please repost.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 04:01:37 pm by bignosemac » Logged

broadgage
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« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2020, 04:47:50 pm »

Latest reports on BBC website state 3 dead. Very sad, the bereaved are no doubt in all our minds.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-53751678

And slightly later reports on channel 5 TV news, confirm 3 dead, one of whome is reported to be the train driver.  Cry
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 05:04:10 pm by broadgage » Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TonyK
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« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2020, 05:16:41 pm »


And slightly later reports on channel 5 TV news, confirm 3 dead, one of whome is reported to be the train driver.  Cry

Sadly, that appears to be the case now that matters are becoming clearer. Reports now say that everyone has been accounted for.
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Now, please!
southwest
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« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2020, 05:38:10 pm »

Very sad 3 dead, 6 injured. Even more worrying is the aerial footage on BBC News which shows indeed a Mk3 caught fire, another is badly crushed with two laying on top. Something has indeed gone really wrong, as i've said previously I do hope this isn't a "Concorde" style moment that ruins the HST almost perfect record.
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stuving
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« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2020, 05:49:30 pm »

Very sad 3 dead, 6 injured. Even more worrying is the aerial footage on BBC News which shows indeed a Mk3 caught fire, another is badly crushed with two laying on top. Something has indeed gone really wrong, as i've said previously I do hope this isn't a "Concorde" style moment that ruins the HST almost perfect record.

This reminds me of Polmont, in that it's a derailment in a cutting. That greatly increases the risk that a vehicle running off the track will hit something really solid and its front end just stop - the cutting wall. Unfortunately cutting walls are also well placed to cause derailments by slipping onto the track.
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Phantom
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« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2020, 07:25:29 pm »

Very sad 3 dead, 6 injured. Even more worrying is the aerial footage on BBC News which shows indeed a Mk3 caught fire, another is badly crushed with two laying on top. Something has indeed gone really wrong, as i've said previously I do hope this isn't a "Concorde" style moment that ruins the HST almost perfect record.

This reminds me of Polmont, in that it's a derailment in a cutting. That greatly increases the risk that a vehicle running off the track will hit something really solid and its front end just stop - the cutting wall. Unfortunately cutting walls are also well placed to cause derailments by slipping onto the track.

From the BBC live reporting:

The railway line between Aberdeen and Dundee was upgraded in a £9m Network Rail project last year.

Over six weekends in February and March, engineers renewed 2,500m of track at a number of locations along the line between the two cities.

This included improvements to the level crossing at Carmont, near where the passenger train derailed.

The project involved installing a total of 3,500 new concrete sleepers and 2,500m of rail.
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onthecushions
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« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2020, 09:02:26 pm »


It's heartbreaking to see those wonderful mark 3's crushed, burnt and tossed aside, when they daily for 36 years, carried me to work and around the West, in air conditioned comfort, perfect safety and quietness (at least in coach A).

I can't speculate but I do observe from approved images that the track either side of the wreck appears undisturbed so that the entire accident is contained within a car's length. The leading power car appears to be facing rearwards. Only one buckeye coupling has survived. Diesel is difficult to ignite and is only spilled in really catastrophic circumstances like Ladbroke Grove, where a friend of mine was present next to the burning coach. 79mm of rain fell in the area in four hours.

The brave driver and guard gave their lives in the public service just as much as the NHS COVID workers.

OTC
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broadgage
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« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2020, 10:20:28 pm »

Latest reports on BBC TV news at 22-00, confirmed earlier reports of 3 fatalities, and 6 injured.
The only new news was that only 9 persons were on board, so EVERY person was either killed or injured.

It is therefore most fortunate that the train was so slightly loaded, had it been full a death toll in the dozens would seem probable.

What I find particularly shocking is not the actual occurrence of the accident, they can never be entirely eliminated, but the scale of the damage to modernish stock. One coach is substantially destroyed a very rare occurrence these days.

Despite this tragedy, we must remember just how rare such events are, and just how safe rail travel is.

Most media reports refer to a landslide as being the likely cause.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2020, 10:44:00 pm »

What I find particularly shocking is not the actual occurrence of the accident, they can never be entirely eliminated, but the scale of the damage to modernish stock. One coach is substantially destroyed a very rare occurrence these days.

The MK III, whilst much better than a MK I, has proven not to be particularly crash-worthy unfortunately.  The images from Southall and Ufton Nervet crashes show how badly they perform when involved in substantial collisions, though the only really modern reference point for newer stock is the Pendolino involved in the Grayrigg derailment. 

That appeared to stand up amazingly well, though you have to be very careful when making comparisons.  A whole train derailing and falling down a slope will produce significantly different forces to one suddenly being stopped by a landslide with the resulting concertina effect.

A sad day for the industry, but as you say had it been a busy train it could have been very much worse.
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