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Author Topic: HST derailment, near Stonehaven, 12th August 2020  (Read 3832 times)
bignosemac
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« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2020, 10:49:36 pm »



 Cry
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onthecushions
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« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2020, 12:03:20 am »


I wonder whether the difference in performance lies in the space the crashing/derailed train has to stop. The Pendolino had nothing in its way so kept together down the bank with only the leading coupling parting. The other accidents had the leading vehicle stop dead by bad luck, either hitting an object that wouldn't move, or digging into the ground. No following vehicles could survive that without massive deformation, impulse being infinite.

At least they concertinaed rather than telescoped.

OTC
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grahame
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« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2020, 04:48:45 am »

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful and measured postings yesterday, here in public and in our Frequent Poster area

From the BBC overnight - an article that summarises the events of around 20 hours ago.

Quote
An investigation has begun into an Aberdeenshire rail crash in which three people died.

The train driver, a conductor and a passenger were killed when the the 06:38 ScotRail service from Aberdeen to Glasgow Queen Street derailed near Stonehaven on Wednesday morning.

It is thought to have hit a landslide after heavy rain and thunderstorms caused disruption across Scotland.

Six other people were also injured in the incident.

They were taken to hospital but their injuries were not believed to be serious.

Expert investigators are now working to identify the cause of the crash.

The report goes on to tell of messages of support, visits to site by VVIPs, and starting investigations. And, inevitably, "this must never happen again".  Robust lessons must indeed be learned, but very, very, very rarely something will go awfully wrong and we should be enormously thankful just how rare it is - not content ourselves with that, but  never the less be realistic.  3 people died at Stonehaven - 3 too many.  If it was an average day elsewhere, five people died on the UK roads.

We don't know what the investigation will come up with - and we hope it does point to issues that can be dealt with such that there is no recurrence but trains keep running practically.  Indications are that systemic issues from Margam on 3rd July last year have identified issues which can or have been changed to make things safer; we don't know how much that'll come out of the Stonehaven experts' work, but we hope that it does and put resources into making sure it does as much as possible.

I noted tweets at lunchtime yesterday asking about alternative services ... being rounded on by others tweeting "how could you even think of asking".  However, the rail service is there for a reason, leisure traffic already decimated, and people do need to move for necessary travel . National Rail reports that the line from Dundee to Aberdeen is closed until further notice.

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All lines are closed between Aberdeen and Dundee as the emergency services continue to work at the site of the derailed train near Stonehaven. Consequently, no trains will run between those stations, and trains between Aberdeen and Glasgow Queen Street / Edinburgh may be cancelled or revised.

There is no estimate as to when the line reopen, so the below alterations will be in place until further notice.

ScotRail

Amendments to service:
Trains will not run between Aberdeen and Dundee.
Trains which normally run between Aberdeen and Glasgow Queen Street / Edinburgh will start / terminate at Dundee.
Trains will not run between Aberdeen and Montrose.

Alternative travel options:
The Scottish Government has made it clear that public transport should be used by those making necessary journeys only, so staff and passengers can maintain a physical distance from each other in stations and on trains. Please don’t travel if your journey isn’t a necessary one.
If your journey is necessary, your ticket will be valid on other trains between Edinburgh and Glasgow Central.
Rail replacement transport is running between Dundee and Aberdeen. Buses will be operated by Merlin Travel, First Aberdeen, Watermill Coaches, Kineil Coaches, Eazy Coaches and Ratho Coaches.
Ticket acceptance is also available on Stagecoach services as follows:
Stagecoach East on route 73/A: Dundee, Broughty Ferry, Balmossie, Monifieth, Barry Links, Golf Street, Carnoustie and Arbroath.   
Stagecoach North 7B: Aberdeen, Portlethen and Stonehaven.

LNER:
Customers travelling between Aberdeen and Edinburgh are advised not to travel until further notice.
Replacement coaches are being sourced, but customers at advised that there is no guarantee of travel between these stations.

CrossCountry:
Trains are unable to run between Aberdeen and Edinburgh.
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TonyK
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« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2020, 10:32:15 am »


I noted tweets at lunchtime yesterday asking about alternative services ... being rounded on by others tweeting "how could you even think of asking".  However, the rail service is there for a reason, leisure traffic already decimated, and people do need to move for necessary travel . National Rail reports that the line from Dundee to Aberdeen is closed until further notice.


I saw similar tweets, and, wearing my charitable head, considered it possible that those asking  were aware of a cancellation but not the cause. For the near future, it is obvious that this will take time, and I don't think for a moment that pressure will be on NR and the ToCs to hurry it up.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2020, 10:42:00 am »

https://metro.co.uk/2020/08/12/network-rail-warned-about-landslips-four-weeks-before-train-derailment-tragedy-13121720/

Suggestion that NR were being warned about landslips some time ago and were not doing enough.
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« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2020, 11:07:40 am »

My thoughts are with the drive of 1T08 the passengers who lost their lives or were seriously injured and the families.  My thanks go to the Blue Light Services, the NR and ToC staff who are involved in rescue and recovery

What I find particularly shocking is not the actual occurrence of the accident, they can never be entirely eliminated, but the scale of the damage to modernish stock. One coach is substantially destroyed a very rare occurrence these days.

The MK III, whilst much better than a MK I, has proven not to be particularly crash-worthy unfortunately.  The images from Southall and Ufton Nervet crashes show how badly they perform when involved in substantial collisions, though the only really modern reference point for newer stock is the Pendolino involved in the Grayrigg derailment. 

That appeared to stand up amazingly well, though you have to be very careful when making comparisons.  A whole train derailing and falling down a slope will produce significantly different forces to one suddenly being stopped by a landslide with the resulting concertina effect.

A sad day for the industry, but as you say had it been a busy train it could have been very much worse.

There is a good 30 years between the design of a Mk3 and a Penelino, the other comparison would be the Mk4 at Hatfield. 
If I recall correctly the main concern of the BR Engineers for the Mk3 was preventing articulation in the event of derailment, the coach should be able to with stand being on its roof and support its bogies.

Untill the extent of the landslip is known its difficult to judge if too much was being asked of a Mk3 coach, the other consideration the HST were meant to be 7 or 8 coaches between power cars, these new sets are 4 coaches between 2 80 Tonne locomotives.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/08/12/network-rail-warned-about-landslips-four-weeks-before-train-derailment-tragedy-13121720/

Suggestion that NR were being warned about landslips some time ago and were not doing enough.

I know the Geotech team in the Region I work in have their work cut out monitoring the hundreds of miles of cutting and embankments, the do install active monitoring devices on known potential slip areas.  Occasionally a cutting will move that has been stable for decades the cuase being external an adjacent land owner altering their drainage, a stream getting blocked and storm water taking a different route.

The RAIB report I am sure will identify the causes and the weaknesses in the operation, infrastructure and rolling stock.

A dark day for the Rail Industry
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« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2020, 01:15:49 pm »

https://metro.co.uk/2020/08/12/network-rail-warned-about-landslips-four-weeks-before-train-derailment-tragedy-13121720/

Suggestion that NR were being warned about landslips some time ago and were not doing enough.

I expect that the formal report will look into this. Hopefully the RAIB will employ engineers who will carefully examine the scene of the accident, rather than arts graduates stood on a hill several hundred metres away, when they assess the causes and make their recommendations.

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grahame
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« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2020, 01:25:41 pm »

https://metro.co.uk/2020/08/12/network-rail-warned-about-landslips-four-weeks-before-train-derailment-tragedy-13121720/

Suggestion that NR were being warned about landslips some time ago and were not doing enough.

I expect that the formal report will look into this. Hopefully the RAIB will employ engineers who will carefully examine the scene of the accident, rather than arts graduates stood on a hill several hundred metres away, when they assess the causes and make their recommendations.



https://metro.co.uk/2020/08/13/driver-killed-stonehaven-train-derailment-named-13121845/

The Metro today also tells us more about the driver and circumstances.
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« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2020, 04:37:37 pm »

While overhead pictures of the accident site, both moving and still, have now been widely shown, they have not so far shown the area around it. This sequence from the Evening Express in Aberdeen extends a bit further, and does show the shape of the terrain and the landslip that derailed the train. It is about a full train's length before the bridge.



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« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2020, 05:25:19 pm »

If you were wondering about the temporary road and parking area, and the orange engineering machinery near the bridge, it's for work on the foundations of the railway's bridges (there are at last three) over Carron Water. The contractor is Story Geotechnical, and this page from Railscot has a picture from below the the next but one bridge downstream. No doubt the work was suspended when the heavy rain was forecast. I suspect that bridge is higher than the one at West Carmont, but otherwise is likely to be of similar construction.
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« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2020, 06:06:01 pm »

Quote
Untill the extent of the landslip is known its difficult to judge if too much was being asked of a Mk3 coach, the other consideration the HST were meant to be 7 or 8 coaches between power cars, these new sets are 4 coaches between 2 80 Tonne locomotives.

That is a very valid point. The other thing is that the operator has only been operating these types of traction for a year and a half, with no prior experience in HST operation. I don't want to speculate as it's wrong to do so, but there is likely to be a number of factors which could have lead to this accident.
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bignosemac
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« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2020, 07:41:26 pm »

A nice tribute from The Station Master's Lodge at Gwinear Road, Cornwall.

https://twitter.com/GwinearRoadStn/status/1293957590746095620

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paul7755
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« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2020, 01:00:09 am »

Quote
Untill the extent of the landslip is known its difficult to judge if too much was being asked of a Mk3 coach, the other consideration the HST were meant to be 7 or 8 coaches between power cars, these new sets are 4 coaches between 2 80 Tonne locomotives.

That is a very valid point. The other thing is that the operator has only been operating these types of traction for a year and a half, with no prior experience in HST operation. I don't want to speculate as it's wrong to do so, but there is likely to be a number of factors which could have lead to this accident.
The latest video reports strongly suggest a landslip coming down through the trees on the down side of the cutting within about a train length of the bridge.

Paul
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broadgage
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« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2020, 01:18:41 pm »

I have received another report from a friend who lives near the scene of the tragedy, though not involved in any way.
The state that the helicopter they observed was a coastguard one, primarily searching for anyone who had escaped alive and then become lost in the challenging terrain.

They again stated that the rainfall was truly extreme, even by local standards in an area known for rough weather.
Their next door neighbour had a substantial stone outbuilding collapse, presumed due to the downward rushing of water undermining the foundations. The three goats within were killed. Had any persons or other livestock been within they would probably have been killed.
Another neighbour had a modern steel framed barn partially collapse, again due to fast moving flood water washing away the supports.

I fully appreciate that the loss of animals and the destruction of property, is of relatively little consequence if compared to the human death toll, and no disrespect is intended  by this.
Worth reporting IMHO as confirmation of just how extreme was the rainfall.
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It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2020, 01:59:47 pm »

RAIB just posted update

Quote
The RAIB is investigating a fatal accident that occurred near Carmont on the national rail network in Scotland.

At around 09:40 hrs on Wednesday 12 August 2020, all six vehicles of a passenger train derailed after striking a landslip around 1.4 miles (2.25 km) north-east of Carmont, Aberdeenshire. There were nine people on the train at the time of the accident; three train crew (the driver, conductor and a second conductor travelling as a passenger on this train) and six passengers. Tragically, the driver of the train, the train’s conductor and one passenger suffered fatal injuries in the accident. The remaining passengers and member of train crew were taken to hospital.

The site of the accident was approximately four miles (6.4 km) south-west of Stonehaven and 20 miles (32 km) north of Montrose, on the double track main line which runs between Dundee and Aberdeen. The train, which was operated by Abellio (trading as ScotRail), was a High Speed Train set with a leading power car, four Mark 3 passenger coaches and a rear power car. It had originally been operating as train reporting number 1T08, the 06:38 hrs service from Aberdeen to Glasgow Queen Street. Train 1T08 had departed on time from Aberdeen and then from Stonehaven, its next scheduled stop. After departing Stonehaven, the train continued past Carmont on the up (southbound) line until it was stopped by the signaller at Carmont, using a radio message. This was because the signaller had just received a report from the driver of a train on the down (northbound) line that a landslip was obstructing the up line between Carmont and Laurencekirk.

Google Earth image showing key locations
Google Earth image showing key locations

When it became apparent that train 1T08 could not continue its journey south, the decision was taken to return it to Aberdeen, and it was routed back over a crossover at Carmont onto the down line. After travelling for approximately 1.4 miles (2.25 km), the train struck a landslip covering the down line and derailed. As the track curved to the right, the train continued in a roughly straight line for around 100 yards (90 metres) until it struck a section of bridge parapet, which was destroyed. The leading power car continued over the bridge and then fell from the railway down a wooded embankment, as did the third passenger carriage. The first passenger carriage came to rest on its roof, having rotated to be at right angles to the track. The second passenger carriage also overturned onto its roof and came to rest on the first carriage. The fourth passenger carriage remained upright and attached to the rear power car; it also came to rest on the first carriage. All wheelsets of the rear power car derailed, but it remained upright..
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/passenger-train-derailment-near-carmont-aberdeenshire?utm_source=cac6d922-c7c0-4888-bf4d-4d29bef30daa&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate
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