Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 21:55 28 Mar 2024
* Bus plunges off South Africa bridge, killing 45
* Easter getaways hit by travel disruption
- Where Baltimore bridge investigation goes now
- How do I renew my UK passport and what is the 10-year rule?
- Family anger at sentence on fatal crash driver, 19
- Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
28th Mar (1988)
Woman found murdered on Orpington to London train (*)

Train RunningCancelled
18:36 London Paddington to Plymouth
19:33 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill
19:35 Exeter St Davids to London Paddington
20:54 Reading to Gatwick Airport
20:56 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington
21:30 Shalford to Reading
21:53 Newbury to Bedwyn
22:25 Bedwyn to Newbury
22:30 Gatwick Airport to Reading
22:47 Newbury to Bedwyn
Short Run
17:03 London Paddington to Penzance
18:03 London Paddington to Penzance
19:04 Paignton to London Paddington
20:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
21:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
21:20 Bristol Temple Meads to Severn Beach
22:10 Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads
23:04 Reading to Bedwyn
23:17 Bedwyn to Reading
Delayed
Additional 17:26 Castle Cary to Penzance
19:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
21:30 Gatwick Airport to Reading
21:45 Penzance to London Paddington
23:45 London Paddington to Penzance
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 28, 2024, 22:03:51 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[104] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[103] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[78] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[56] If not HS2 to Manchester, how will traffic be carried?
[41] Return of the BRUTE?
[25] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3
  Print  
Author Topic: Network Rail decarbonisation policy  (Read 7517 times)
bradshaw
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1450



View Profile
« on: September 10, 2020, 14:55:51 »

This is due soon and Phil Haigh has put on Twitter the map produced by Network Rail showing its proposals for the National Network.

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/1304041945170210817?s=21

Edit 14.57 Report now available Online

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Traction-Decarbonisation-Network-Strategy-Interim-Programme-Business-Case.pdf
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2020, 17:11:00 »

A very long and interesting read.   I have ordered some midnight oil.    Figure 14, and I have skewed the colours to help differntiate core and ancillary electrification.





Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
Red Squirrel
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5190


There are some who call me... Tim


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2020, 17:18:03 »

Diagram on P199 and subsequent table clarifies...
Logged

Things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.
Rhydgaled
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1500


View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2020, 17:46:56 »

Any timescales? I'm particularly interested in Wales & Borders routes, great to see most of the nation in green but how long are we expected to wait for, say, Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury* electrification?

* I know this isn't in Wales, but it's a fairly important route for the Wales & Borders franchise.
Logged

----------------------------
Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
eightonedee
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1532



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2020, 21:33:48 »

Having skimmed through this two things stand out-

1  - The pictogram on page 74 - anything other than "proper" electrification is second best/a poor alternative
2  - Third rail may not be dead yet - see pages 228-230.

And a new campaign slogan - "Pathway 4 now!"
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2020, 20:15:05 »

I  have posted on Facebook as follows and kicked a can of worms. https://www.facebook.com/graham.ellis.5055/posts/10158615006212094

Quote
Electrification of the railway through Melksham?  The suggestion made a decade ago would have been laughed out of court, but now Network Rail (the folks who would have been doing the laughing) are proposing it as part of their plans for a zero carbon railway by 2050.  Their "Traction Decarbonisation Network Strategy suggests core routes to be electrified first, ancillary routes which logically follow on, and a finally other routes running in Hydrogen or batteries.  Melksham comes in the first group - a core route with electrification following on from the Great Western Electrification which has nearly reached Chippenham to Bristol, Taunton and Exeter, from Newbury via Westbury to Taunton, and from Westbury to both Bath and Chippenham.

Network Rail explain:

PASSENGERS: As well as a regional commuter service this route also acts as a diversionary route for long-distance high-speed Great Western Railway services between London and the South West and Bristol.  The West of England Combined Authority is developing the Metrowest proposals which will entail significant service enhancements for Greater Bristol, including Bristol-Bath-Westbury services which could exploit the future electrification of this route. Enhancements to the regional service are also proposed.

FREIGHT: Aggregate traffic from the quarries can utilise this route to gain access to the Great Western mainline. These trains are some of the heaviest on the network. This route can also act as a diversionary route for freight traffic from Southampton destined for the West Midlands.

A long term project - not next year or probably even this decade - but certainly not beyond the bounds of probability, and even before the main line on from Exeter to Paignton, Plymouth and Penzance.  It would bring faster journey times, cleaner and less noisy services too. And it would be a logical encouragement towards more trains too.  With the Southampton line electrified too (in the core route group), expect to see Melksham served by a regional electric train from the Solent area, via Salisbury and Trowbridge and onwards to Swindon, Oxford, and perhaps Milton Keynes and Bedford.

You may tell me I am dreaming.  But then you told me that I was dreaming when I asked for an all day, every day service a decade ago. And we have that now.  The difference is that last time everyone thought I had a crazy idea, but this time they're the ones coming up with the idea.   See pages 199 and 200 of Network Rail's report at https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Traction-Decarbonisation-Network-Strategy-Interim-Programme-Business-Case.pdf , discussion at http://www.passenger.chat/24005 .

In answer ...

* It is part of an ongoing / rolling program and not instead of extending from Chippenham to Bath and Bristol

* The railways need to think well ahead ... road investment is worked out over 60 years - even longer - and what's done and planned today needs to last into the latter half of this century to make economic sense

* This planning is not being done in place of shorter term stuff.   Things are parallel not serial.

* Who told you Melksham is sleepy? 


Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
Red Squirrel
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5190


There are some who call me... Tim


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2020, 22:23:22 »

With thanks to bradshaw for drawing this to my attention, I have posted on the FoSBR» (Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways - site) website too. My take is that we now need to persuade WECA» (West of England Combined Authority - about) to convince the powers that be that the Bristol area is 'low-hanging fruit'...

https://fosbr.org.uk/decarbonisation/
Logged

Things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.
TonyK
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6435


The artist formerly known as Four Track, Now!


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2020, 00:10:06 »

A very long and interesting read.   I have ordered some midnight oil.   

I ordered some midnight hydrogen instead, which should be with me by 2060. So I used oil instead.

It is very interesting, and probably the first solid indication of the move from diesel. I remain a little sceptical about battery and hydrogen being added to the mix of technologies, but having read this, I can see the reasoning behind the choice on each route.

25 kV OHLE will be the base, and I would imagine that the major routes with electric at both ends would be the priority. This would mean finishing the job between Thingley Junction and Bristol, and Temple Mead to not only Parkway, but to Birmingham. That would knock other schemes down the order, and Severn Beach would have to wait, despite being, as RS points out, the low hanging fruit.

Then I got to page 242, where the recognition of the potential for a government change of mind gets a mention. It is shown as only a medium risk, which I think is a little charitable.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 12:00:34 by TonyK » Logged

Now, please!
bradshaw
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1450



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2020, 08:31:25 »

Longer term it might make sense to do Southampton to Reading via Salisbury for the freight traffic at 25kv, then to Salisbury and infill Romsey to Bathampton also at 25kv.

Longer term might be Salisbury to Exeter at 25kv, determined by use as diversion route. If so, it would seem sensible to add Yeovil Jn to Castle Cary for the same reason.

However see attached image from this month?s Railway Magazine!
Logged
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4356


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2020, 09:16:10 »

Although this is a very large document that has been published; it actually only represents a proportion of the feasibility work going on.

One of the challenges is to ensure that the move to renewable / sustainable has an equal or better "green footprint" in terms of its whole life compared to the current hydrocarbon based systems.

The rare earth metals for example used in batteries the impact that has on the extracting and processing and ultimate recycle / disposal.  The whole life environmental cost of GWEP (Great Western Electrification Program) is been studied for example.  All these issues need some understanding in comparison to current technology; or we may leave future generations with the Nuclear Power Station decommissioning type problems ie great while it working but now how do we get rid of it!

I am a great advocate of electrification over fossil fuel powered traction, always have been in my 40 + year railway career, i believe traction units should have an onboard energy source to a) infill where there is no electrification, b) when the electrification is deenergised, c) depot movements.  This can be achieved by on train batteries utilising energy capture from re-gen braking, this would also act as a pump - storage system for station starts etc
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
Red Squirrel
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5190


There are some who call me... Tim


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2020, 12:05:10 »


...

25 kV OHLE will be the base, and I would imagine that the major routes with electric at both ends would be the priority. This would mean finishing the job between Thingley Junction and Bristol, and Temple Mead to not only Parkway, but to Birmingham. That would knock other schemes down the order, and Severn Beach would have to wait, despite being, as RS points out, the low hanging fruit.


To be clear, it's the unfinished bit from Chippenham - Temple Meads - Parkway that I was referring to as low-hanging fruit. I can see that including the Birmingham route would make sense.

I understand the ambivalence about the Severn Beach line, though given that the report errs towards 25kV rather than battery it might make sense to cover the Severnside lines (and possibly Portishead?) as part of the same project. Presumably that would work out cheaper than making passive provision and then coming back years later. A push from WECA» (West of England Combined Authority - about) might help.


...

The rare earth metals for example used in batteries the impact that has on the extracting and processing and ultimate recycle / disposal.  The whole life environmental cost of GWEP (Great Western Electrification Program) is been studied for example.  All these issues need some understanding in comparison to current technology; or we may leave future generations with the Nuclear Power Station decommissioning type problems ie great while it working but now how do we get rid of it!


Li-ion batteries are recyclable, but a lot of work needs to be done to make this normal and avoid them ending up in landfill. We have to hope that as the automotive sector ramps up its use of these batteries, the economics of recycling will improve.
Logged

Things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4452


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2020, 12:48:38 »

I am aware that there is ongoing development on an Aluminium Ion battery as am alternative to the Lithium Ion battery which IIUI still needs Manganese and some Lithium. 

In my opinion the increased demand for batteries and the resource shortage is likely to spur development of those and other alternatives to the Lithium-Ion battery.  However as in all these things success is not guaranteed. 
Logged
eightonedee
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1532



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2020, 22:22:43 »

Quote
However see attached image from this month?s Railway Magazine!

I think only Melksham has been achieved - we need more Grahames!

I also see that Railway Magazine's sub editor is more familiar with the works of Noel Coward than the towns of the Northumberland coast........
Logged
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4256


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2020, 15:35:34 »

Am I imagining that I remember NR» (Network Rail - home page) announcing a year or so back a long-term plan to end all diesel operation by 2040? Or it could have been 2050.
Logged

Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4452


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2020, 20:44:14 »

Quote
However see attached image from this month?s Railway Magazine!

I think only Melksham has been achieved - we need more Grahames!

I also see that Railway Magazine's sub editor is more familiar with the works of Noel Coward than the towns of the Northumberland coast........

But I though Melksham Station reopened in 1985.  That article was in 2000 before the services were cut in 2006?
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1] 2 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page