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Poll
Question: Do you think the new system will be designed ...  (Voting closed: September 30, 2020, 01:08:10 pm)
to avoid overcrowded trains at the new 'full' level? - 3 (2.6%)
to balance the load between services? - 4 (3.5%)
to be liked and be voted for? - 6 (5.3%)
to bring uncertainty so that you can run the railways with less union complaint? - 4 (3.5%)
to discourage travel on weekends when you have trouble staffing? - 4 (3.5%)
to encourage community and external stakeholder involvement? - 3 (2.6%)
to encourage competition? - 2 (1.8%)
to encourage journeys that most enhance the economy? - 7 (6.1%)
to encourage multi-buy products to save collection costs and generate loyalty? - 1 (0.9%)
to encourage people away from driving and flying? - 5 (4.4%)
to engineer use to balance general economic resurgence against some safety and freedoms? - 2 (1.8%)
to generate income from enhanced options such as catering, 1st class, luggage and cycle charges - 6 (5.3%)
to help marginal consituencies - 12 (10.5%)
to integrate with other modes of public and sustainable transport - 5 (4.4%)
to maximise income? - 10 (8.8%)
to maximise passenger journeys? - 3 (2.6%)
to minimise the cost to the treasury? - 17 (14.9%)
to promote social engieering towards working from home and fewer shorter commutes - 0 (0%)
to sell seats on quiet trains? - 4 (3.5%)
to set fares to encourage carbon neutral (electric train) use over diesel? - 1 (0.9%)
to simplify the system? - 5 (4.4%)
to suppress community and external stakeholder involvement? - 3 (2.6%)
to support a vehicle for city and pension investment - 7 (6.1%)
Total Voters: 19

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Author Topic: The new way of running the rails - what do you EXPECT of the new system?  (Read 850 times)
grahame
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« on: September 21, 2020, 01:08:10 pm »

The Government has announced the end of franchising, interim emergency agreements with the train operators, and will be publishing a white paper to look ahead to a system for the medium and longer term, based on advise from the Williams report.

Two questions.
Another thread is what would you like to see as basic objectives of the new system.  See http://www.passenger.chat/24040
This thread is what do you expect the government to have as its priorities in the new system?

I will run these two polls for 10 days ... members are allowed during that time to come back and change their votes if their vies change based on discussions.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 01:15:23 pm by grahame » Logged

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grahame
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2020, 08:28:55 am »

The Government has announced the end of franchising, interim emergency agreements with the train operators, and will be publishing a white paper to look ahead to a system for the medium and longer term, based on advise from the Williams report.

Two questions.
Another thread is what would you like to see as basic objectives of the new system.  See http://www.passenger.chat/24040
This thread is what do you expect the government to have as its priorities in the new system?

I will run these two polls for 10 days ... members are allowed during that time to come back and change their votes if their vies change based on discussions.

It's very interesting to compare and contrast answers in this thread ( http://www.passenger.chat/24041 ) as to what you expect the government to do in a/the new system and in the sister thread ( http://www.passenger.chat/24040 ) as to what you would like the government to do.   

Both threads remain open for a further three days - a good number of vote already, but also a good opportunity for you to vote and make a difference to our results as numbers are not silly-high.    Of course, whilst you may make a difference to our results, whether that echos through into government policy is quite another matter - early results indicate some doubt as to how much the government will welcome stakeholder and community input ....
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broadgage
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2020, 01:05:41 pm »

I voted for "greater integration with other public or sustainable transport"
This is an excellent way of making grand sounding promises without doing much or spending money.

Signs directing people from train platform to the bus stop are cheap and count as "greater integration" for the de-luxe option, add a bus timetable, possibly even the current one.

Walking is cheap, sustainable and simple, so put up some posters at train station that advertise attractions within walking distance. If the owners of the attractions can be induced to pay for the advertising, a profit can be made.

A few cycle racks are cheap and count as "greater integration" between cycling and trains.

Electric cars are at least somewhat sustainable, so put up a notice advertising charging points in the locality, this is cheaper than providing a charging point.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
southwest
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2020, 11:20:29 pm »

I voted for "greater integration with other public or sustainable transport"
This is an excellent way of making grand sounding promises without doing much or spending money.

Signs directing people from train platform to the bus stop are cheap and count as "greater integration" for the de-luxe option, add a bus timetable, possibly even the current one.

Walking is cheap, sustainable and simple, so put up some posters at train station that advertise attractions within walking distance. If the owners of the attractions can be induced to pay for the advertising, a profit can be made.

A few cycle racks are cheap and count as "greater integration" between cycling and trains.

Electric cars are at least somewhat sustainable, so put up a notice advertising charging points in the locality, this is cheaper than providing a charging point.

Car charging points will have to be added at some point
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ellendune
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2020, 09:01:39 am »

Electric cars are at least somewhat sustainable, so put up a notice advertising charging points in the locality, this is cheaper than providing a charging point.

Yes somewhat is the word. If charged by renewable electricity they eliminate carbon emissions and air pollution from exhausts. However, rubber tyres are still giving rise to microplastics pollution and there is still an environmental cost in the manufacture of the car. There is also the environmental impact of the roads they use. 

Lets see them as a step on the way to a sustainable future.
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Rhydgaled
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2020, 09:16:36 pm »

Electric cars are at least somewhat sustainable, so put up a notice advertising charging points in the locality, this is cheaper than providing a charging point.

Yes somewhat is the word. If charged by renewable electricity they eliminate carbon emissions and air pollution from exhausts. However, rubber tyres are still giving rise to microplastics pollution and there is still an environmental cost in the manufacture of the car. There is also the environmental impact of the roads they use. 

Lets see them as a step on the way to a sustainable future.
Presumably electric buses also cause microplastic pollution and there is an environmental cost in the manufacture of them and of the roads they use. However it is still more energy efficient to move pepole (assuming the traffic flow is sufficiently large) on electric buses than electric cars meaning you need to manufacture fewer wind turbines, solar panels etc. Presumably there is a similar effect with the rubber tyres, does one bus emit less microplastic pollution than several cars?

No mode of transport (except perhaps walking) is entirely free of environmental cost - manufacture of bikes, cars, buses and trains alike is going to require some energy. Rubber tyred vehicles need roads/tracks of some description to run on (though not all cycle tracks use tarmac/concrete) and trains need metal rails, concrete/wood/steel sleepers and ballast or concrete slabs to hold the rails in place (eg. is HS2's carbon footprint higher due to use of slab track compared to if ballast was to be used?).
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Don't DOO it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
southwest
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2020, 08:29:49 pm »

Electric cars are at least somewhat sustainable, so put up a notice advertising charging points in the locality, this is cheaper than providing a charging point.

Yes somewhat is the word. If charged by renewable electricity they eliminate carbon emissions and air pollution from exhausts. However, rubber tyres are still giving rise to microplastics pollution and there is still an environmental cost in the manufacture of the car. There is also the environmental impact of the roads they use. 

Lets see them as a step on the way to a sustainable future.

Electric cars sustainable?

Uses massive battery packs that last only 10 years, meaning they either have to be replaced, or the car scrapped. Where is the power coming from to charge the car?
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ellendune
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2020, 09:20:48 pm »

Yes somewhat is the word. If charged by renewable electricity they eliminate carbon emissions and air pollution from exhausts. However, rubber tyres are still giving rise to microplastics pollution and there is still an environmental cost in the manufacture of the car. There is also the environmental impact of the roads they use. 

Lets see them as a step on the way to a sustainable future.

Electric cars sustainable?

Uses massive battery packs that last only 10 years, meaning they either have to be replaced, or the car scrapped. Where is the power coming from to charge the car?

The power can at least come from renewable sources - but is does rely like many other measures on decarbonising the electricity grid.
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southwest
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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2020, 12:15:54 am »

Yes somewhat is the word. If charged by renewable electricity they eliminate carbon emissions and air pollution from exhausts. However, rubber tyres are still giving rise to microplastics pollution and there is still an environmental cost in the manufacture of the car. There is also the environmental impact of the roads they use. 

Lets see them as a step on the way to a sustainable future.

Electric cars sustainable?

Uses massive battery packs that last only 10 years, meaning they either have to be replaced, or the car scrapped. Where is the power coming from to charge the car?

The power can at least come from renewable sources - but is does rely like many other measures on decarbonising the electricity grid.

Agreed, but from what I remember only 25% of our power comes from renewables, Wind turbines being thrown up all over the countryside and near the sea destroying the landscape. The wave hub off Cornwall is still non existent years later.  Most of the power is now coming from Nuclear(hardly renewable)

All it's doing is shift one problem away and putting another one in its place, with plans to build more houses, more buildings, more cars on the road, more electrification of rails, and eventually electric buses, aircraft and ferries where is all the electricity coming from?
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broadgage
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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2020, 03:09:43 am »

A significant proportion of UK grid electricity is from renewables. Wind power is the largest renewable input, followed by solar, and with a small contribution from hydropower.
This proportion is increasing as more wind turbines and solar panels are installed.
Nuclear power is a small and declining share of UK electricity supply.
Wave and tidal power show some promise but are insignificant at present.
Coal burning for power generation has declined substantially, for some months no coal was burnt. Coal burning has returned for the colder weather, but is now a small and declining source.

Rubber pollution from tyres is not IMHO a significant problem, it is a natural material  and once divided into fine powder soon breaks down. Plastic pollution is a greater problem since plastic micro particles end up in the sea where plankton eat them, and they build up in larger sea creatures that eat plankton.

https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ UK grid data. 25% from renewables at present, and 23% from nuclear. During the day, renewable input  increases as solar is available as well as wind.
Nuclear power declines in percentage terms during the day as demand increases.

Hunterston nuclear power station is due to close by the beginning of 2022, having already been "life extended" far beyond the original design life. There must be doubts about the continued operation of other nuclear stations of the same design and similar age. One limiting factor is the cracking of the graphite core.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
GBM
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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2020, 12:07:51 pm »


... The wave hub off Cornwall is still non existent years later. 

Now being sold as an offshore wind farm hub, following the Governments decision to place wind power at the heart of our UK power
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broadgage
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2020, 01:17:04 pm »


... The wave hub off Cornwall is still non existent years later. 

Now being sold as an offshore wind farm hub, following the Governments decision to place wind power at the heart of our UK power

Sensible in my view. Wind power is now an established technology that is already meeting a significant proportion of our electricity demand, with expansion already planned. Offshore wind also has an indirect environmental gain as most ships are banned from wind farms which have therefore become "accidental" marine life preserves.
Wave power is still experimental.
Solar power is also an established technology, already meeting a significant proportion of our daytime load.
Tidal power is not yet used on a significant scale, but in my view should be used. The building of large dams or barriers is a well understood technology that is already used to facilitate navigation, to control flooding, and to generate hydroelectric power. Water turbines are also a mature technology.

Nuclear power undoubtedly works but is exceedingly expensive and plagued by delays. I doubt that Hinkley C will ever open.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
ellendune
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2020, 11:21:47 pm »

Rubber pollution from tyres is not IMHO a significant problem, it is a natural material  and once divided into fine powder soon breaks down. Plastic pollution is a greater problem since plastic micro particles end up in the sea where plankton eat them, and they build up in larger sea creatures that eat plankton.

Natural rubber, may well be... um ... natural, but modern tyres are not made from natural rubber and haven't been for some time as this article from  national geographic explainshttps://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/environment-and-conservation/2019/09/tyres-plastic-polluter-you-never-thought-about
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