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Author Topic: WECA Rail Plan  (Read 6535 times)
johnneyw
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2020, 18:04:24 »

I never thought I would easily be able to fit "imaginative" and "WECA» (West of England Combined Authority - about)" into the same sentence!  This really could get round the problem of objections from Port of Bristol Authority regarding the level crossing usage and save on building a replacement crossing method yet still have an effective enough loop. Off course the chord won't come cheap and there will doubtless be a fair deal of expense on signalling.  Will it happen though?
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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2020, 18:39:28 »

Running direct trains from Severn Beach to Bristol Parkway gives an easy route between Henbury, Brabazon (the Arena), and Parkway. I don't see any bearing on the pros and cons of Pilning. Pilning, as it happens, does also get a mention though.

Fitting in a new chord at Holesmouth looks tight..!

It does rather, and the purpose is at first sight a little unclear. Better access to Severn Beach would make it more suitable for residential development, though. Possibly more like is a more direct access to the burgeoning power-from-waste plants. At present, everything heading that way has to go via Clifton Down and reverse in from just outside Severn Beach. This would give the trains a route that doesn't involve the single-tracked Severn Beach line through the residential bits of Bristol. That could make the difference.
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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2020, 20:09:37 »

Is Brabazon being used as an official name now for the possible station? I thought it was being referred to as Filton North. The name used in the document is North Filton, which seems to reverse the traditional ordering of place + modifier. Though I note that 'Line doubling between Montpelier and Filton' doesn't specify whether 'Filton' refers to Abbey Wood, North or the Diamond, which is rather remiss/cunning.
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TonyK
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« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2020, 20:46:47 »

Is Brabazon being used as an official name now for the possible station? I thought it was being referred to as Filton North. The name used in the document is North Filton, which seems to reverse the traditional ordering of place + modifier. Though I note that 'Line doubling between Montpelier and Filton' doesn't specify whether 'Filton' refers to Abbey Wood, North or the Diamond, which is rather remiss/cunning.

All a bit mysterious. Filton from the Montpelier area is Four Track, Now. The line between the two going the long way round is double from Holesworth Junction, but surely the easier way to describe the rest of the route would be to call it the "Severn Beach Line from Montpelier to Avonmouth". The point of the exercise is to enable 3 tph between Severn Beach and Temple Meads, which I can't see being possible on the Severn Beach line as is. Doubling the line would let you run 3tph via Clifton Down, but are we looking at 2 tph that way, plus one via a new chord at Holesworth?
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« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2020, 20:53:13 »

North {Place} refers to a station in one of two towns known by the name {Place}. Examples are North Shields, North Queensferry and Northampton.  There are separate towns South Shields, South Queensferry and Southampton.

{Place} North refers to one of multiple stations within a town in which there is or are other stations. Examples are Bicester North, Blackpool North and Bromley North. 
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2020, 21:37:16 »

North {Place} refers to a station in one of two towns known by the name {Place}. Examples are North Shields, North Queensferry and Northampton.  There are separate towns South Shields, South Queensferry and Southampton.

{Place} North refers to one of multiple stations within a town in which there is or are other stations. Examples are Bicester North, Blackpool North and Bromley North. 
That's what I'd have said too. People don't talk about North and South Filton, we have Filton Abbey Wood so it should be Filton North. But maybe they're saying 'North Filton' precisely because it's not as yet finalized? I quite like the idea of Brabazon station...
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« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2020, 21:55:08 »


All a bit mysterious. Filton from the Montpelier area is Four Track, Now. The line between the two going the long way round is double from Holesworth Junction, but surely the easier way to describe the rest of the route would be to call it the "Severn Beach Line from Montpelier to Avonmouth". The point of the exercise is to enable 3 tph between Severn Beach and Temple Meads, which I can't see being possible on the Severn Beach line as is. Doubling the line would let you run 3tph via Clifton Down, but are we looking at 2 tph that way, plus one via a new chord at Holesworth?

You're not the only one to find this confusing. There would surely be little point in just doubling from Montpelier to Narroways, and the cost of opening up the other platform at MTP would be huge.

Is Brabazon being used as an official name now for the possible station? I thought it was being referred to as Filton North. The name used in the document is North Filton, which seems to reverse the traditional ordering of place + modifier. Though I note that 'Line doubling between Montpelier and Filton' doesn't specify whether 'Filton' refers to Abbey Wood, North or the Diamond, which is rather remiss/cunning.

I'm not sure if a name has been decided at this stage, but I rather like 'Brabazon'. The old station was North Filton Platform, so I suspect they are just calling it that for that reason.
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TonyK
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« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2020, 23:16:37 »


You're not the only one to find this confusing. There would surely be little point in just doubling from Montpelier to Narroways, and the cost of opening up the other platform at MTP would be huge.

I should have thought "All or nothing" - a double junction to double tracking all the way. It would cost a fortune, but you could run trains every 5 minutes if desired. Maybe doubling Narroways to Clifton Down as a halfway house - slue the track and move the signal to the opposite end of Clifton Down, and you increase capacity on the whole line, but it makes no sense the way it was written in the report.

Quote
I'm not sure if a name has been decided at this stage, but I rather like 'Brabazon'. The old station was North Filton Platform, so I suspect they are just calling it that for that reason.

I wondered if "Filton North" was to differentiate from "North Filton", which is still there but in the wrong place. Apropos Brabazon, I am now pretty much against the idea of naming places after people, because of the cost of renaming them when the skellingtons fall out of the cupboard. I am not suggesting for a moment that Lord Brabazon, of blessed memory, owned slaves or hung out with the likes of Jimmy Savile, but once the low hanging fruit have been deleted from the history books, who knows where the guardians of the nation's moral compass will look next for sport? He's bound to have upset somebody.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2020, 09:34:51 »


You're not the only one to find this confusing. There would surely be little point in just doubling from Montpelier to Narroways, and the cost of opening up the other platform at MTP would be huge.

I should have thought "All or nothing" - a double junction to double tracking all the way. It would cost a fortune, but you could run trains every 5 minutes if desired. Maybe doubling Narroways to Clifton Down as a halfway house - slue the track and move the signal to the opposite end of Clifton Down, and you increase capacity on the whole line, but it makes no sense the way it was written in the report.

If there is ever to be a 15-minute service on the 'Beach line (which is hinted at in the report), it will as you suggest require that most (if not all) of the line is doubled. Montpelier would be one of the trickier locations to develop an accessible second platform, and redoubling the junction at Narroways would presumably be a bit of a faff, so if you were looking at opportunities for cheeseparing value engineering then maybe that's where you'd look? But I agree that doing the whole line would be better for flexibility and reliability.

Quote
I'm not sure if a name has been decided at this stage, but I rather like 'Brabazon'. The old station was North Filton Platform, so I suspect they are just calling it that for that reason.

I wondered if "Filton North" was to differentiate from "North Filton", which is still there but in the wrong place. Apropos Brabazon, I am now pretty much against the idea of naming places after people, because of the cost of renaming them when the skellingtons fall out of the cupboard. I am not suggesting for a moment that Lord Brabazon, of blessed memory, owned slaves or hung out with the likes of Jimmy Savile, but once the low hanging fruit have been deleted from the history books, who knows where the guardians of the nation's moral compass will look next for sport? He's bound to have upset somebody.

I wondered that too. The Brabazon family seem to have come over from Brabant with the Norman Conquest, settling in Ireland. As with any august and noble line, there must have been bad eggs and shady doings somewhere along the way. But Brabazon is just such a good name, and anyway they'd be naming it after the hangar that was named after the aeroplane that was named after the report that was named after the bloke, so hopefully that's enough removes to placate even the most radical conscience? As an aside, 'Filton' is derived from the Old English word for 'hay', so that discriminates against hayfever sufferers in my book...
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2020, 10:14:19 »

This^^. Brabazon would surely be taken as referring to the aircraft and its hangar (though that's a bit of a white elephant... ) rather than Lord B.
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TonyK
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« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2020, 23:13:12 »

This^^. Brabazon would surely be taken as referring to the aircraft and its hangar (though that's a bit of a white elephant... ) rather than Lord B.

So what happens if a campaign by the woke of the parish, or a commercial decision by YTL, changes the name of the hangar?  Grin

There is a sort of precedent with Metrolink in Manchester. Before the line to Ashton under Lyne was opened, but with a lot of the infrastructure built, the stop named "City of Manchester Stadium" was rechristened (if that's the right word) "Etihad Campus", at the behest of Manchester City's new owners. The cost of all the changes was not unadjacent to ?4 million, which was paid from petty cash. I can't see YTL squandering cash like that, but they may have a say. You never know though - in years to come when they have moved on and the Brab has been pulled down for housing, there could be a station called Brabazon Arena with no Arena, just like there are umpteen Station Roads with no station.

I wondered that too. The Brabazon family seem to have come over from Brabant with the Norman Conquest, settling in Ireland. As with any august and noble line, there must have been bad eggs and shady doings somewhere along the way. But Brabazon is just such a good name, and anyway they'd be naming it after the hangar that was named after the aeroplane that was named after the report that was named after the bloke, so hopefully that's enough removes to placate even the most radical conscience? As an aside, 'Filton' is derived from the Old English word for 'hay', so that discriminates against hayfever sufferers in my book...

My lot were repressed by the English in 19th century Ireland, and arrived as economic migrants. I have no complaints, it's worked out quite well. I can't distance myself from the early arrivals as clearly as you suggest the noble Lord Brabazon could. In any case, if there is anyone dodgy in the family, it's probably me.
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« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2020, 23:44:15 »

If there is ever to be a 15-minute service on the 'Beach line (which is hinted at in the report), it will as you suggest require that most (if not all) of the line is doubled. Montpelier would be one of the trickier locations to develop an accessible second platform, and redoubling the junction at Narroways would presumably be a bit of a faff, so if you were looking at opportunities for cheeseparing value engineering then maybe that's where you'd look? But I agree that doing the whole line would be better for flexibility and reliability.
TBH (to be honest) I doubt if the Severn Beach line would justify a 15-minute frequency anywhere north of Clifton Down and I think a 30-minute frequency would be enough. The way I envisage services on the Severn Beach line would be:

Mondays to Saturdays:
- 1tph between Bristol Temple Meads and Severn Beach (daytimes and evenings)
- 1tph between Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Parkway, via. Clifton Down, Avonmouth, Henbury & Filton North (daytimes and early evenings)

Trains to / from Bristol Parkway could also call at Filton Abbeywood: the signalling in Platform 4 (and Platform 3?) is bi-directional so routing to allow such calls would be possible. Such a link would also allow a sort of Park & Ride service between Portway Bridge (as I call the station intended for the Portway Park & Ride) and Filton Abbeywood for commuters when things get back to pre-Covid commuting levels.

As for the "Henbury Spur" I think that is not the way to do things: commuting for workers around Whiteladies Road would be quicker on a direct train than on the bus. Ashley Down could be served by stopping services to/from Filton Abbeywood and Bristol Parkway (ie. trains from Gloucester).

Sundays:
- 1tph between Bristol Temple Meads and Severn Beach as at present.

Is Brabazon being used as an official name now for the possible station? I thought it was being referred to as Filton North. The name used in the document is North Filton [.....]
I believe North Filton was the name given to the original station.

Dave
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« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2020, 09:20:40 »

If there is ever to be a 15-minute service on the 'Beach line (which is hinted at in the report), it will as you suggest require that most (if not all) of the line is doubled. Montpelier would be one of the trickier locations to develop an accessible second platform, and redoubling the junction at Narroways would presumably be a bit of a faff, so if you were looking at opportunities for cheeseparing value engineering then maybe that's where you'd look? But I agree that doing the whole line would be better for flexibility and reliability.
TBH (to be honest) I doubt if the Severn Beach line would justify a 15-minute frequency anywhere north of Clifton Down and I think a 30-minute frequency would be enough. The way I envisage services on the Severn Beach line would be:

Mondays to Saturdays:
- 1tph between Bristol Temple Meads and Severn Beach (daytimes and evenings)
- 1tph between Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Parkway, via. Clifton Down, Avonmouth, Henbury & Filton North (daytimes and early evenings)

Trains to / from Bristol Parkway could also call at Filton Abbeywood: the signalling in Platform 4 (and Platform 3?) is bi-directional so routing to allow such calls would be possible. Such a link would also allow a sort of Park & Ride service between Portway Bridge (as I call the station intended for the Portway Park & Ride) and Filton Abbeywood for commuters when things get back to pre-Covid commuting levels.

As for the "Henbury Spur" I think that is not the way to do things: commuting for workers around Whiteladies Road would be quicker on a direct train than on the bus. Ashley Down could be served by stopping services to/from Filton Abbeywood and Bristol Parkway (ie. trains from Gloucester).

Sundays:
- 1tph between Bristol Temple Meads and Severn Beach as at present.

Dave

I suppose it depends on whether you believe we need to change things to achieve decarbonisation.

The word 'metro' has been cheapened by using it for regional networks with a 2tph service, but (as the Western Gateway strategy states) metro means 4-6tph, and the Severn Beach line is (or should be!) a metro line. There's a lot of work going on around 15-minute cities, where everything is within a 15-minute walk, the next town is a 15-minute train ride away and trains run every 15 minutes. This may seem like a fantasy to anyone living outside the south-east, but the London area has had far better than that for decades.

I have little doubt that the Severn Beach line could sustain a 4tph as far as Avonmouth. The Penarth line is quite similar, and pre-COVID its four-car 4tph service was very busy.
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« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2020, 10:30:08 »


I have little doubt that the Severn Beach line could sustain a 4tph as far as Avonmouth. The Penarth line is quite similar, and pre-COVID its four-car 4tph service was very busy.


There is a major difference between Penarth and Severn Beach.

In 2011 Penarth had a population of 22,083. Severn Beach had a population of 2,182. Both of them have a hinterland in terms of catchment area but Penart wioll win hands down on that measure too.

I am all for supporting sustainabe rransport but thinking anyone could turn a profit on 4tph to The Beach is absolute Cloud Cuckoo Land fantasy.
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TonyK
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« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2020, 11:13:00 »


There is a major difference between Penarth and Severn Beach.

In 2011 Penarth had a population of 22,083. Severn Beach had a population of 2,182. Both of them have a hinterland in terms of catchment area but Penart wioll win hands down on that measure too.

I am all for supporting sustainabe rransport but thinking anyone could turn a profit on 4tph to The Beach is absolute Cloud Cuckoo Land fantasy.

Which leads us nicely into the secondary effects of transport. Prior to the arrival of the railway, Severn Beach was a farm. After 1900, when the GWR (Great Western Railway) laid rails through it, it began to be noticed. By 1922, somebody thought it was worth a platform, and the area was developed for leisure, so that the tedium of daily life in Bristol could be relieved. Houses began to appear, with a lot more appearing after the leisure park and station buildings were demolished, and it is now home to 2,235 people, three quarters of whom are aged under 65. South Gloucestershire could do with more council tax houses, or so they tell us, and a decent transport link will help dear old Severn Beach grow. Turning a profit isn't measured solely in fares where government at local or national level gets involved, but also economic growth. If it is also acting as a terminus for two different lines, I am sure a case could be made.
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