Train Graphic
Great Western Passengers' Forum [home] and [about]
Current travel advice (from 29.3.2021)
Forum in and beyond Coronavirus
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 20:35 13 Apr 2021
- Covid: South Africa variant surge probably due to person travelling from Africa
- Covid-19: Over-45s offered jabs and Scotland travel ban lifted
- Covid: Travel ban in Scotland to be eased from Friday
- Covid: Which areas are being mass tested for variants?
- What's the roadmap for lifting lockdown?
- Covid: When can I go on holiday abroad or in the UK?
- How many people can I have a drink with? And other questions
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 today - Tuesday Club - ONLINE
tomorrow - Bus Back Better - ONLINE
19/04/21 - Option 247 BBB ONLINE
01/05/21 - Official launch - Melksham Hub
Random Image
Train Running Polls Abbreviation page Stn Comparator Rail news GWR co. site Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
April 13, 2021, 08:38:11 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[132] Planned Industrial Action
[95] Templecombe to Swindon - fares anomaly.
[90] Burning car on railway track - train stops short (thank goodne...
[68] Exeter Airport - Sat 04/07 Resumption Of Commercial Flights (C...
[55] Spot the line, compare the service (2 of 3)
[34] Okehampton
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
  Print  
Author Topic: Rail fare rises '21 - up by 2.6% but not until March  (Read 3945 times)
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 32988



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2021, 01:20:40 pm »

Though with the DfT holding all the cards at the moment, there's arguably never been, and never going to be, a better chance to sort that whole problem out.

Totally agreed.  And there's icing on that cake in that passenger numbers are so low at the moment; on any restructure there will be winners and losers - but far, far fewer losers that there would be at normal traffic levels.   Golden opportunity to restructure fares.  Let's see what happens next Monday.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10336


View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2021, 02:52:16 pm »

The Williams Review has been revised with the demise of franchising & has been now formed into a Government White Paper and will be released as soon as the Govt find a suitable release date according to Chris Heaton-Harris and Mr Williams himself - both talking this morning at the Rail Recovery conference.

There is still a chance to register & all content will be available to view on demand from Monday 1st March at http://nationalrailrecovery.com 
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 32988



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2021, 08:07:57 am »

Though with the DfT holding all the cards at the moment, there's arguably never been, and never going to be, a better chance to sort that whole problem out.

Totally agreed.  And there's icing on that cake in that passenger numbers are so low at the moment; on any restructure there will be winners and losers - but far, far fewer losers that there would be at normal traffic levels.   Golden opportunity to restructure fares.  Let's see what happens next Monday.

Well - I am doing an update for the Melksham Rail User Group fare pages (which are via http://www.mrug.org.uk ) and seeing nothing but a blanket 2.6% increase rounded to the nearest 10p.  Detail at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/24729 - please follow up if I have missed something significant!
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10336


View Profile Email
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2021, 08:33:04 am »

I’ve seen reference to ‘average’ rise of 2.4%, so there ought to be some that are lower, but I guess they may not be in your local area.
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 32988



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2021, 08:58:26 am »

I’ve seen reference to ‘average’ rise of 2.4%, so there ought to be some that are lower, but I guess they may not be in your local area.

Evidence suggests that there is a notional (accurate) fare somewhere deep in the system which is rounded to the nearest 10p as fares to be paid are set. The notional increase is (I will give you) 2.4%, but then depending on how the rounding works that gives you a spray of fares.  Take:

Fares 2020 and 2021, Melksham to Bristol Temple Meads
Anytime single, £11.50 now £11.80 (2.6%)
Anytime day return, £12.40 now £12.70 (2.4%)
Off Peak day return, also £12.40 now £12.60 (1.6%)

If the accurate Off Peak Day return fare was 12.351 but rounded to 12.40, the new fare would be 12.646 but rounded to 12.60. And if the accurate Anytime day return fare was 12.419 but rounded to 12.40, the new fare would be 12.717 but rounded to 12.70.

The increase fro £91 to £93.40 on an anytime Melksham to London single is 2.64% - very close to the 2.6% headline; as one would expect the 10p granularity at the price level is much less distorting.  Since the return fare is simply twice the single, no point in looking at that as a separate model, and the granularity there is 20p not 10p.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 32988



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2021, 09:05:35 am »

Muted coverage of the rises at the time they happen so far this year, but the shouts may come later in the day
* No big build up with information released in advance
* Lots of other news around (no looking to fill news feeds in early January)
* Very few people travelling especially 5 days a week - season ticket prices not all that relevant at the moment
* Repeating story for the most part with no structural change or anything interesting to report

From The Guardian

Quote
Rail fares in England and Wales will increase by 2.6% on Monday, the first time the government has chosen to put up prices above RPI (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) inflation since 2013, in a move that has been criticised for further pricing middle income earners out of rail travel and undermining the government’s green credentials.

The price rise comes despite calls for freezes or even discounts to help attract passengers back to the railways.

The government said the additional 1% rise above inflation came on the back of extraordinary public spending to prop up rail services during the pandemic when revenues fell away.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 32988



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2021, 09:43:53 am »

Looks like some journalists "caught short" without the usual pre-release  Grin

From The Argus

Quote
Examples of the potential fare hikes include a Brighton-London annual season ticket going up by £129 to £5,109 and a Manchester-Glasgow off-peak return rising by £2.30 to £90.60.

Exact prices will be released today.

For the record - the £90.60 was a correct guess.  Brighton to London season actually £5108 (that's any operator, London Terminals)
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
Lee
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6984

He who laughs last hasn't got all the facts.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2021, 10:24:07 am »

Oh god here we go again, Fares are really my achilles heel. I hate days like this when they dominate, that's why grahame always did the fare responses in Save The Train days - He's always loved the complexities  Grin

Give me a nice easy Network Rail Business Plan any day!
Logged

Currently muddling along the Guingamp-Carhaix line

http://twitter.com/research_gwchat
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 32988



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2021, 10:52:42 am »

Oh god here we go again, Fares are really my achilles heel. I hate days like this when they dominate, that's why grahame always did the fare responses in Save The Train days - He's always loved the complexities  Grin

Give me a nice easy Network Rail Business Plan any day!

Apart from fares rising 1% above the higher and disputed inflation measure, no real news, Lee, so I suspect today more of a splutter than a big story. Plenty else in the news.

Sad day, really - it was a really good opportunity - perhaps THE golden opportunity - to innovate and to look forward for the green aganda, rather than push prices up and justify it based on all te recent support given to the rail industry during coronavirus - I suspect the increase brought in will just be a tiny pebble of money in the great lake of cash spent.

What has been missed as far as I can see is anything from:
* Bus and train interchangability of tickets
* Part time season tickets
* Uniform all day fares as there is now no "peak" or "off peak" in real travel life
* Always provision of any "any permitted" routing, which always includes "next available arrival"
* Carnets
* A loyalty card - a new name for a railcard available to anyone
* Trains included like buses on ENCTS (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) cards
* Free "I travelled by train" badge for all customers to help advertise rail more widely
... perhaps all or most are in "too difficult" but if it's too difficult in the current circumstances where we are at a low and about to restart afresh, it will always be too difficult!
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10336


View Profile Email
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2021, 11:07:18 am »

Part-time seasons were mentioned as 'forthcoming' in media interviews/pieces over the weekend. Not sure any of the others are yet on the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) radar, except there has been comment that further discounts or savings that cost the rail industry a drop in fare boxes are out of the question in the near future "Do you know how much we have pumped in to rail already to keep it going?"
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 32988



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2021, 11:34:28 am »

"Do you know how much we have pumped in to rail already to keep it going?"

Have you asked the person you are quoting "Do you know how many more people would try the train is you were to offer even a small olive branch of some better fares, and whether as a result that might produce a net increase in firebox revenue from seats that are otherwise going empty and earning you nothing at all?"
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10336


View Profile Email
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2021, 11:39:59 am »

Until they lift the medical warning not to use public transport there is very little point....
Logged
Ralph Ayres
Full Member
***
Posts: 76


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2021, 12:22:47 pm »

Have you asked the person you are quoting "Do you know how many more people would try the train is you were to offer even a small olive branch of some better fares, and whether as a result that might produce a net increase in firebox revenue from seats that are otherwise going empty and earning you nothing at all?"

That's called elasticity.  It's actually the whole principle by which the TOCs (Train Operating Company) set the fares that aren't fiercely regulated by the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) and means you can get some bargains. Trouble is it works both ways, so if overall they will get more revenue from fewer people paying more then they will do that.  Offer the better fare to fill the empty seats and the people who would have paid more will buy the cheaper tickets too unless you come up with the complicated rules we now have for many tickets to limit their attractiveness.
Logged
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5593


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2021, 05:46:54 pm »

I’ve seen reference to ‘average’ rise of 2.4%, so there ought to be some that are lower, but I guess they may not be in your local area.



The increase fro £91 to £93.40 on an anytime Melksham to London single is 2.64% - very close to the 2.6% headline; as one would expect the 10p granularity at the price level is much less distorting.  Since the return fare is simply twice the single, no point in looking at that as a separate model, and the granularity there is 20p not 10p.

£186.80 for a return from Melksham to London?  Shocked
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 32988



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2021, 06:22:20 pm »

£186.80 for a return from Melksham to London?  Shocked

About the same distance ... Honeybourne to London ... £86.60 and , no, I have not missed a "1" off that - it really is just over £100 cheaper.

There are PLENTY of lower price Melksham to London options - see http://www.mrug.org.uk/londonfares.html where I need to update the page to add that 2.6% or so. There are also higher prices if the train times via Swindon don't suite and you go via Westbury instead.   The shock headline there is £214.20 ...

Annual season ticket (via Swindon £10,580) which the National Rail website tells me works out at £22.80 per journey (so that would be £45.60 per return trip).  For a week it is £29.77 per journey.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 06:29:54 pm by grahame » Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page