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Author Topic: IET review on YouTube - December 2020  (Read 6947 times)
grahame
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« on: December 30, 2020, 09:11:58 »

IET (Intercity Express Train) review from a Journey made "to my home town" of Exeter from Paddington on the 18:04 train on 23rd December 2020 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1At3LMD_QM

From Superalbs Travels

Quote
Hello, and welcome back to another train trip report, this time I review the GWR (Great Western Railway) Class 802 in Standard Class.

For this week's video, I am travelling on a new-ish bi-mode Hitachi Class 802 units from London Paddington to Exeter St Davids.

These trainsets, along with the very similar DfT» (Department for Transport - about)-spec Class 800s wholly replaced GWR's long-distance fleet, including the Class 180 Adelante, and of course the fan-favourite Class 43 HST (High Speed Train).

Unfortunately, this new train is plagued with many faults and problems, which is why I would describe it as the worst high-speed train I have ever been on. It's definitely my least favourite train to ride.

Watch the video to see why I really dislike this new train ...
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« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2020, 10:57:13 »

What a totally depressing - but totally accurate, video of these so-called Inter City trains. The only plus point is the excellent leg room, which was quite acceptable on the High Speed Train (HST (High Speed Train))s anyway ! That train didn't look too bad but one thing I have noticed is how easily the seats and carpets seem to stain, even plain water seems to leave a mark !

There is one possible blessing to look forward to.............these trains cannot possibly last anywhere near as long as the High Speed Train (HST)s, they will fall apart like the circus clowns' car ! 

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 10:50:16 by VickiS » Logged
4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2020, 11:49:04 »

I also stumbled across this video a couple of days ago - I was going to post the link and then forgot...! Doh! (Too much port...?  Wink )

It reflects my experiences and I have posted about them previously. For a modern train the ride is totally inadequate - the wheelsets and/or bogies hit bump stops too frequently even on apparently straight and smooth track.

These trains are specified as being 140mph capable - the very thought scares me.
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PhilWakely
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« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2020, 12:40:12 »

Fairly early into the video, the reviewer compares the seats to some European commuter sets. I think the whole IET (Intercity Express Train) concept shouts 'middle-distance commuter train'. It is completely unsuitable for long-distance leisure travel.
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broadgage
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« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2020, 12:54:17 »

So it is not just me that considers these DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit) to be a significant downgrade and unsuitable for intercity use.

And yes I know that IET (Intercity Express Train) supporters will say that the seats are not that bad really, and that they are not really DMUs because they use electric power for a small part of the journey, and that not every vehicle has an engine, and so on.

And no catering on a so called intercity service, simply appalling. And yes I know that there might sometimes be a trolley, but this is so often in the other unit, static, hiding in first class, or completly absent, that for all practical purposes one might reasonably say that the new units dont have catering.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2020, 13:12:30 »

That train didn't look too bad but one thing I have noticed is how easily the seats and carpets seem to stain, even plain water seems to leave a mark !

Seats don't really stain now the new seat covers have been added.  The old covers were terrible.  The badly stain showing aisle carpets are all going to be replaced in the New Year on the 800s, with hopefully the 802s to follow. 

Whoever chose the colour of those two items should hang their heads in shame, particularly the seat covers which had, IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly), been already been fitted to at least one HST (High Speed Train) set and Turbo and were clearly not suitable.
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To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
Red Squirrel
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« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2020, 17:50:30 »

Is any member able to watch this video and then put the case for IETs (Intercity Express Train)?
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Things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.
broadgage
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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2020, 18:28:23 »

Is any member able to watch this video and then put the case for IETs (Intercity Express Train)?

I suspect that the case for IETs can be summarised as

The seats are ergonomic, but an ill informed minority don't appreciate this. And anyway padded seats are now illegal.
The engine noise is not that bad, and you can always sit in a non engine coach if you prefer.
The poor ride is subjective, they are quite good really.
All the incorrect announcements are operator error, not the fault of the train.
Luggage space is fine, provided people don't take too much luggage.
Loose and rattling panels are due to people trying to pull bits of.
No one wants buffets anymore, surveys show it.
A effective trolley service remains an aspiration that is being worked towards.
Hot food was tried briefly, but was not a success.
Other TOCs (Train Operating Company) are rushing to order similar units because they are so good.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
grahame
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« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2020, 18:57:19 »

Is any member able to watch this video and then put the case for IETs (Intercity Express Train)?

I suspect that the case for IETs can be summarised as

....

I can't help feeling that a video "In support of the IET" by Broadgage would elicit doubt in the same way as "Why we should nationalise the railways" by Jacob Rees Mogg, "Proposal to convert GWR (Great Western Railway) to metre gauge" by Isambard Kingdom Brunel, or "The best car buy for 2021" by Geoff Marshall and Vicki Pipe.

What other unlikely videos can members imagine?
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« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2020, 19:34:23 »


Loose and rattling panels are due to people trying to pull bits of.


I confess.....! these trains are so good that I want my very own in my back garden, so I am nicking one - bit by bit !!
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grahame
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« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2020, 20:15:05 »

We are so mobile these days!  In the time of my youth, we travelled just a few miles to school or work each day, shopped local and took days out in the same county or a neighbouring one; holidays were a week at the nearest seaside, and a long distance journey - perhaps from London to Formby or Minehead, was a major excusion to be planned months ahead. The days of pacifics out of Euston,  Warships or Hymeks out of Paddington.

The High Speed Train revolutionised long distance rail travel in the UK (United Kingdom). Intended as a stop-gap provision as the railways wound down into their final retirement, it had quite the opposite effect; travel became regular and the routine, towns that had previously has a service of one train every two hours steeped up to two trains every hour.  The ethos of travel moved from "plan way ahead" to "turn up and go" and intermediate stops were added as the residents of towns skipped wanted to be part of the brave new 125 world.

The 125, if you like, was a victim of its own success. It was never built to be running a sto-start service but much more an intercity one. It was not built to provide clock-face services in the same hourly pattern all day. And it was not built to be clean and green. Yes never the less it provided all those things - and it provided so well that people voted with their feet and kept coming along to use it more and more.

From a train that was grudgingly accepted when it replaced people's beloved Westerns and Deltics, the HST (High Speed Train) grew in stature. It was like an unplanned child, adopted by the parents of APT (Advanced Passenger Train) when it came along and APT proved to be a high maintenance princess, moving from a cahrity case to a grudingly accepted member of the family to one that was much respected, cherised and loved as time went by, and goodness weren't to many of us sad to see it getting a little bit long in the tooth, run down, and no longer as quick or clean in its habits as we might have wished.

So - the 125 developed a loving following and a mass transport market that was very fond of it - familiar with "do not flush in the station", the long pauses at Kintbury or Pewsey while the train mananger walked the eight coaches to close a door and the ever-so-slow take off from Hungeford or Bedwyn or other stations along the way.

Built to take the success of the 125 and build on it, fit for the new market developed, the IET (Intercity Express Train) has been designed with that market in mind.  But, hey, that kills some nostalgia. Yes, you may flush the loo in the station. You can get out by pushing a button to open the door rather that sticking your hand out of a window and fondling for a lever in the rain out there. And you can get there so much earlier that you now have time to pop into a cafe for a full cup of coffee rather than balance a half cup along the corridor of a rocking and rolling train.

The new trains are both electric and diesel. No longer the fumes and particulates under the roof at Paddington. No longer that slow takeoff as the engines roar but a rapid, if unromantic glide. They're boringly the same as the one that was an hour before and an hour after.  They are notable by their lack of notability - they do they the job but (at least as yet) we haven't grown to know them well and have a quiet love for them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 00:20:32 by grahame » Logged

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broadgage
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« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2020, 21:40:36 »

There is plenty of variety in IETs (Intercity Express Train).
Some are full length, others are 5 car only.
Some have reservations, but many don't.
Some have toilets working, others don't.
Some have correct announcements, others don't.
Some survive the perils of Dawlish, others hide.

A few had a trolley service, others had a static trolley, location unknown, others had a trolley only in the other portion, many had no trolley, the ultimate improvement.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2020, 13:35:38 »

We are so mobile these days!  In the time of my youth, we travelled just a few miles to school or work each day, shopped local and took days out in the same county or a neighbouring one; holidays were a week at the nearest seaside, and a long distance journey - perhaps from London to Formby or Minehead, was a major excusion to be planned months ahead. The days of pacifics out of Euston,  Warships or Hymeks out of Paddington.

The High Speed Train revolutionised long distance rail travel in the UK (United Kingdom). Intended as a stop-gap provision as the railways wound down into their final retirement, it had quite the opposite effect; travel became regular and the routine, towns that had previously has a service of one train every two hours steeped up to two trains every hour.  The ethos of travel moved from "plan way ahead" to "turn up and go" and intermediate stops were added as the residents of towns skipped wanted to be part of the brave new 125 world.

The 125, if you like, was a victim of its own success. It was never built to be running a sto-start service but much more an intercity one. It was not built to provide clock-face services in the same hourly pattern all day. And it was not built to be clean and green. Yes never the less it provided all those things - and it provided so well that people voted with their feet and kept coming along to use it more and more.

From a train that was grudgingly accepted when it replaced people's beloved Westerns and Deltics, the HST (High Speed Train) grew in stature. It was like an unplanned child, adopted by the parents of APT (Advanced Passenger Train) when it came along and APT proved to be a high maintenance princess, moving from a cahrity case to a grudingly accepted member of the family to one that was much respected, cherised and loved as time went by, and goodness weren't to many of us sad to see it getting a little bit long in the tooth, run down, and no longer as quick or clean in its habits as we might have wished.

So - the 125 developed a loving following and a mass transport market that was very fond of it - familiar with "do not flush in the station", the long pauses at Kintbury or Pewsey while the train mananger walked the eight coaches to close a door and the ever-so-slow take off from Hungeford or Bedwyn or other stations along the way.

Built to take the success of the 125 and build on it, fit for the new market developed, the IET (Intercity Express Train) has been designed with that market in mind.  But, hey, that kills some nostalgia. Yes, you may flush the loo in the station. You can get out by pushing a button to open the door rather that sticking your hand out of a window and fondling for a lever in the rain out there. And you can get there so much earlier that you now have time to pop into a cafe for a full cup of coffee rather than balance a half cup along the corridor of a rocking and rolling train.

The new trains are both electric and diesel. No longer the fumes and particulates under the roof at Paddington. No longer that slow takeoff as the engines roar but a rapid, if unromantic glide. They're boringly the same as the one that was an hour before and an hour after.  They are notable by their lack of notability - they do they the job but (at least as yet) we haven't grown to know them well and have a quiet love for them.
With all due respect, the issues with the IET are not that it is not an improvement over the HST in some technical respects such as it can use electric power, its power-to-weight ratio when on electric power, dynamic and rheostatic braking, stiffer coach bodies, toilet waste disposal and selective door control but that so many of the things that directly affect the customer have been so badly designed and implemented.

These include, but are not limited to:
  • the ride - which at best can be described as 'vintage'
  • noise levels - even the end coaches which have no diesel power units have an annoying whine
  • unwelcoming seating
  • flimsy internal trim and components.

I defy anybody to argue that these are an improvement over what went before. In some cases they are not even as 'customer friendly' as other modern train designs such as the Siemens Class 444s ordered by South Western Trains.

The HST was such a marked improvement over what went immediately before it on the Western, specifically in its ability to cut travel times, that it became, as you said a victim of its own success. In a new train intended for longer distance travel one would have expected at the very least a silky smooth and quiet journey in welcoming seats and surroundings.

This is why there is so much disappointment - the cleft between expections and reality is so great.

And I can see little chance of anything changing soon. The TOC (Train Operating Company) has no influence on the internal layout or fittings and certainly little or none on the mechanical parts of the train or the trains' maintenance as all these factors are covered by the IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) contracts between the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) and Agility Trains. And these have about another quarter century to run...

I thought one of the reasons put forward for privatisation was that decision making was to be pushed to being as close to the customer as possible. Clearly the civil service didn't hold much for that idea...
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broadgage
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« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2020, 14:27:16 »

I agree that in some technical respects that IETs (Intercity Express Train) are an improvement, the ability to use electric power, selective door control,, retention toilets and the like are improvements.
Mechanical reliability seemed rather poor, especialy WRT (with regard to ) coupling and uncoupling. The "essential requirement" to couple and uncouple in some short and specified time seems to have become a future aspiration.
The alleged "essential requirement" to cope with the conditions at Dawlish turned not to be a requirement to function, with no service in rough weather at high tides.

The seat reservation system has been unreliable, apparently no one could have foreseen lack of the required signal when at a station.

Luggage space is inadequate for a long distance train serving popular holiday resorts.

Passenger comfort and facilities are very poor indeed. Noise vibration, hard seats, no through gangway, seats not aligned with windows, and few table seats. (and before IET supporters all scream "more tables than an HST (High Speed Train)" this is only true of the down graded commuter style HSTs. The original HSTs had 16 tables per coach. Loco hauled inter city coaches had almost all table seats.)

And as for catering, it is not just me who believes that providing a proper full sized hot buffet is a requirement on a long distanceservice. Not a microbuffet or a static trolley.

All sorts of grand promises were made about the trolley service, none of which have been regularly achieved.

"Improved trolleys that keep hot things hot and cold things cold" not achieved.
"Hot food from the trolley" sunk without trace, possibly after a brief trial.

And the alleged advantage of obtaining refreshments without leaving ones seat is completly negated by having to search for the static trolley.
And leaving one portion of the train to walk along the platform to search the other other portion for the trolley is SO much more convenient than going to the buffet.

And none of this is excused by the pandemic, my remarks refer to pre pandemic days, though it will be probably be even worse after the pandemic is over.


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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2020, 15:03:23 »

that keep hot things hot and cold things cold"

Reminds me of the old (rather unkind !) David Beckham joke:
Becks goes to training one day carrying his brand new vacuum flask.

Sir Alec: "What you got there son ?"
Becks:    " A vacuum flask boss"
Sir Alec:  "Whats that do ?"
Becks:    " It keeps hot things hot and cold things cold boss"
Sir Alec:  "What you got in there ?"
Becks:   " A cup of coffee and a choc ice boss !"
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