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Author Topic: Alstom and Eversholt to hydrogenate class 321s  (Read 11084 times)
stuving
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« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2021, 15:47:31 »

But the sun is always shining somewhere, even if it's in the opposite hemisphere on the other side of the globe. On the same basis, I expect the wind is always blowing somewhere. Perhaps we are thinking too regionally. (Perhaps this changes the question from "who's going to pay for the storage?" to "who's going to pay for the Australia to Siberia interconnector?")

The further question of "how much power would come out of the end?" is even more important.
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TonyK
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« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2021, 17:31:55 »


The further question of "how much power would come out of the end?" is even more important.

The biggest project under study around these parts is IceLink, which would deliver around 5 TWhe annually from Iceland to a point just south of Scotland (technical reasons, obvs) using a HVDC submarine interconnector around 1200 km in length, at somewhere around 1 GW (Great Western). Any losses en route would be compensated for by the fact that the heat to generate power in Iceland is practically limitless. It remains at a feasibility stage.

I've been to Iceland a couple of times - hot water is piped to Reykjavik from miles away, but still has to go through some giant zig-zag piping to cool it down enough to use when it gets there. Practically all power and heating comes from either geothermal or hydroelectric sources. Per capita electricity consumption is about nine times the European average, largely because of the presence of energy intensive industries like aluminium smelters. Fossil fuels are largely reserved for transport.

It may be worth noting that hydrogen has been mooted as a source of motive power since the 1970s. The world's first public hydrogen filling station opened in Iceland in 2003, and there was a year-long experiment with hydrogen buses. It wasn't successful enough to keep the buses running after it ended. The same happened with a whale-watching ship converted to run on hydrogen, but not a big success. There are now three hydrogen fuel stations in Iceland, two of them being part-funded by the EU» (European Union - about) (Iceland is a member of the EEA), and producing hydrogen on site by electrolysis. I am struggling to find any mention of actual hydrogen powered vehicles though, with most of the web pages about them being either a decade old at least, or by cheerleaders from mainland Europe. Icelanders are proud of their clean energy, so I am minded to think that abundant clean electricity is not the only hurdle to a hydrogen-based transport economy.
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GBM
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« Reply #62 on: January 30, 2021, 16:13:35 »

Going off topic (not sure where it fits in) but.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-55838291
The bus driver reported she was concerned the bus would explode as it was a hydrogen bus.
The flare was lit on the top deck, and thrown at the driver downstairs.

Could the bus have exploded, or is a hydrogen tank as safe as a diesel tank?
(Note to self, diesel is quite/fairly stable).
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rogerw
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« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2021, 17:09:27 »

Now reported by the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) as a bio-methane powered bus. As far as I know, Bristol has no hydrogen powered buses.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-55860189
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GBM
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« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2021, 17:55:46 »

Now reported by the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) as a bio-methane powered bus. As far as I know, Bristol has no hydrogen powered buses.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-55860189

My apologies.  Misread it as hydrogen fuelled vehicle. 
Hydrogen powered vehicles being introduced in Aberdeen.

However, how stable are vehicle tanks of bio-methane and also hydrogen?
Obviously not mixed together.........
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TonyK
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« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2021, 11:11:58 »


My apologies.  Misread it as hydrogen fuelled vehicle. 
Hydrogen powered vehicles being introduced in Aberdeen.

However, how stable are vehicle tanks of bio-methane and also hydrogen?
Obviously not mixed together.........

Nothing wrong with mixing methane with hydrogen. Greenpeace use that as an advertising plug for their sales of fossil-derived natural gas in Germany. Half a percent seems sufficient to declare the fuel as green.

There are no hydrogen buses in Bristol, as has been pointed out. I can't see any bus being allowed on the road unless there were sufficient safety mechanisms to prevent what is known in Bristol as a "gert 'splosion", whatever the fuel. That said, I wonder if anyone ever dreamt that some idiot would attempt to re-enact Frank Zappa's 1971 concert at the Montreux Casino on a Bristol bus?

There's nothing wrong with mixing methane with biomethane either. The Gas Bus Alliance built the station that refuels Bristol's fleet of gas buses. If you wonder how the gas is transported to Lawrence Hill from where it is made, there is a clue in this article on the Intelligent Transport webpage. It says:

Quote
The bus station can provide 100 per cent compressed bio-methane to fuel up to 100 gas buses. The bio-methane is taken direct from the mains, which is said to provide another green benefit as there will be no fuel delivery from road tankers.

It works this way. The bus company signs an agreement to buy gas from a company that is already pumping the processed remnants of a thousand curries into the national gas grid. The bus company then fills its buses from the national gas grid, with molecules that once belonged to a dinosaur, and sticks a picture of some flowers on its website. It's an accounting trick. I think it is a very good thing that waste products are being made into usable gas rather than discharged into the atmosphere, although I am mindful of the recent tragedy at Avonmouth. I also think gas is a cleaner fuel than diesel, but I view attempts to hide the fact that the bus is still throwing carbon dioxide into the atmosphere as bordering on dishonesty. One of the French mineral water companies found that it was inconvenient to transport naturally fizzy water to bottling plants by tanker, so hit on the idea of boiling the CO2 off into the atmosphere, then adding the fizz at the bottling stage using gas recovered from that same atmosphere. That caused a bit of a scandal some years ago when it was discovered, akin to passing off mild Cheddar as cheese. This gas thing is no different. The company should be transparent.
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ellendune
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« Reply #66 on: February 01, 2021, 21:48:20 »

The bus company signs an agreement to buy gas from a company that is already pumping the processed remnants of a thousand curries into the national gas grid. The bus company then fills its buses from the national gas grid, with molecules that once belonged to a dinosaur, and sticks a picture of some flowers on its website. It's an accounting trick. I think it is a very good thing that waste products are being made into usable gas rather than discharged into the atmosphere, although I am mindful of the recent tragedy at Avonmouth. I also think gas is a cleaner fuel than diesel, but I view attempts to hide the fact that the bus is still throwing carbon dioxide into the atmosphere as bordering on dishonesty.

It is better by far that the bio-methane is used as a fuel as if it were to be released into the atmosphere its effect on global warming would be about 25 times worse than if it is burnt and the CO2 released.  Bio-methane is not so much produced as captured from natural processes that would otherwise have happened and released the gas into the atmosphere. To ensure it is captured, however, the process is often industrialised.

I do not see it as dishonest that it is delivered through the gas grid where it is mixed with fossil methane as the natural process that ended up making the bio-methane used up the same amount of CO2. 
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« Reply #67 on: February 01, 2021, 22:20:52 »

It certainly makes sense for biomethane to be used as a source of energy. But that is achieved simply by adding it to the mains gas system,  where it displaces natural gas that would otherwise be burned by domestic and commercial users. However,  it doesn't necessarily follow that it makes sense to use it as a vehicle fuel instead of diesel.  The  CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) engines are spark ignition,  so a lot less energy efficient than diesel engines. Figures I've seen for buses suggest about 30% more energy is used, or more. This means that carbon savings are only achieved if biomethane is used- they can actually increase for CNG. So it might make more sense to use the biomethane to reduce CO2 from existing gas consumers,  and find something more energy efficient for buses.
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TonyK
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« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2021, 09:06:56 »


It is better by far that the bio-methane is used as a fuel as if it were to be released into the atmosphere its effect on global warming would be about 25 times worse than if it is burnt and the CO2 released.  Bio-methane is not so much produced as captured from natural processes that would otherwise have happened and released the gas into the atmosphere. To ensure it is captured, however, the process is often industrialised.

I do not see it as dishonest that it is delivered through the gas grid where it is mixed with fossil methane as the natural process that ended up making the bio-methane used up the same amount of CO2. 


And I wholeheartedly agree. My point is that should First decide to revert to using methane only rather than bio-methane, the bio-methane, or "methane", would not be discharged into the atmosphere, and the plant would continue to pump it into the grid. What is coming out of the exhaust pipe would be exactly the same. It's the same as buying your electricity based on the Isle of Skye providing 100% renewable energy from its wind farm - what you use to power your computer still comes from the grid, with its mix of nuclear, wind, sun, gas and coal, and said wind farm isn't going to shut down if you opt for one producing electricity from whales (or Wales for that matter). In practice, most "green" electricity is provided by companies who have bought Renewable Obligations Certificates or the new equivalent on the open market. It costs them about £1 per annum. If we all decided to go green and buy the power for the entire country from such companies, they could still do it by buying them overseas.

You have me wondering - how much bio gas is produced in this country, and how much is sold to consumers as opposed to gas companies? I'll try to find out.

It certainly makes sense for biomethane to be used as a source of energy. But that is achieved simply by adding it to the mains gas system,  where it displaces natural gas that would otherwise be burned by domestic and commercial users. However,  it doesn't necessarily follow that it makes sense to use it as a vehicle fuel instead of diesel.  The  CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) engines are spark ignition,  so a lot less energy efficient than diesel engines. Figures I've seen for buses suggest about 30% more energy is used, or more. This means that carbon savings are only achieved if biomethane is used- they can actually increase for CNG. So it might make more sense to use the biomethane to reduce CO2 from existing gas consumers,  and find something more energy efficient for buses.

I understand that it produces a lot less of the oxides of nitrogen than diesel engines, although still some. I have been on the one that uses the motorway, and it struggled to reach 48 mph, so I assume that it is not as efficient as diesel, as you say. I once had a LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas)-powered car, which was great, as it cost me less than half the price of petrol. It died at under 80,000 miles, as the higher temperature burnt holes in the pistons (I'm glad it wasn't mine, but provided by my employer). It was a petrol engine adapted to use LPG, so maybe the bus engines won't suffer the same fate.
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2021, 11:38:32 »

Bio-methane is not so much produced as captured from natural processes that would otherwise have happened and released the gas into the atmosphere. To ensure it is captured, however, the process is often industrialised.
Is that actually the case? I understood most bio-methane is produced from crops grown specifically for the purpose. It's an additional demand which adds to rather than replaces the demand for food crops.
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TonyK
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« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2021, 15:49:03 »


Is that actually the case? I understood most bio-methane is produced from crops grown specifically for the purpose. It's an additional demand which adds to rather than replaces the demand for food crops.

Our local anti-social digester uses a heady mixture of waste from local cattle farms, waste from some crops, and other crops grown especially for subsidies renewable energy. A benefit is that the farmers use the leftover stuff as fertiliser, rather than spraying the contents of the slurry pit willy-nilly. The gas is cleaned, and adjusted with a bit of propane, then pumped into the grid. Another digester near my other Devon abode leaked into the River Mole, and killed thousands of fish, wiping out years of hard conservation work overnight.
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« Reply #71 on: February 02, 2021, 17:11:04 »

Bio-methane is not so much produced as captured from natural processes that would otherwise have happened and released the gas into the atmosphere. To ensure it is captured, however, the process is often industrialised.
Is that actually the case? I understood most bio-methane is produced from crops grown specifically for the purpose. It's an additional demand which adds to rather than replaces the demand for food crops.
Bio-methane is produced by digestion of organic waste.  Bio-ethanol is produced from crops grown for the specific purpose and is then added to road fuels.
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2021, 17:22:33 »

Bio-methane is not so much produced as captured from natural processes that would otherwise have happened and released the gas into the atmosphere. To ensure it is captured, however, the process is often industrialised.
Is that actually the case? I understood most bio-methane is produced from crops grown specifically for the purpose. It's an additional demand which adds to rather than replaces the demand for food crops.
Bio-methane is produced by digestion of organic waste.  Bio-ethanol is produced from crops grown for the specific purpose and is then added to road fuels.
Thanks for the clarification, apologies for the confusion.
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« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2021, 19:44:23 »

Another digester near my other Devon abode leaked into the River Mole, and killed thousands of fish, wiping out years of hard conservation work overnight.

i hadn't realised there was more than one river called Mole. My local River Mole runs from near Gatwick through Surrey and up to the Thames.
I had a similar enlightenment a few years back when I discovered that my then local River Colne had a namesake in Essex. And I've just noticed another in west Yorkshire.  Smiley
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stuving
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« Reply #74 on: February 02, 2021, 23:49:47 »

You have me wondering - how much bio gas is produced in this country, and how much is sold to consumers as opposed to gas companies? I'll try to find out.

I don't know what happened to that TonyK on his way to the library. Must have been waylaid by ... Miss Scarlet with the stiletto heels, I hope, rather than Colonel Mustard with the lead piping. But anyway, two sources of official numbers - hope you can see the pictures well enough

The first is DUKES, the Digest of UK (United Kingdom) Energy Statistics (DUKES) 2020. That contains a lot of stuff (as in 176 pages), from which I've extracted the "renewables flowchart". That show precisely zero (in units of ktoe) of gaseous biofuels used for transport. That may not be exact, but obviously it's not going to be a big number.

The table is from the "Renewable fuel statistics 2020: Second provisional report data tables: RF_01 (RTFO tables)". In this case it's not the volume produced or used per se, but the amount caimed against the RTFO - the Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation to its friends. It's possible some of this gas is made and used without claiming the brownie point stamps to stick in the book, but I can't see anything to tell us that. This time the units are megalitres, and the percentages are of all the transport fuel claimed for RTFOs. I've included biopropane, as (1) you may not have heard of it and (2) it's a bigger number than for biomethane. Most of "our" biomethane is foreign, as you can see. ("Doubly counted" means awarded double brownie points for being from genuine waste, or otherwise properly sustainable.)
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