Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 07:15 29 Mar 2024
- Bus plunges off South Africa bridge, killing 45
- Easter getaway begins with flood alerts in place
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
29th Mar (1913)
Foundation of National Union or Railwaymen (*)

Train RunningCancelled
06:30 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
07:00 Bedwyn to Newbury
07:22 Newbury to Bedwyn
07:49 Bedwyn to Newbury
08:13 Newbury to Bedwyn
08:46 Bedwyn to Newbury
09:54 Bedwyn to Newbury
10:22 Newbury to Bedwyn
11:29 Newbury to Bedwyn
11:57 Bedwyn to Newbury
12:52 Bedwyn to Newbury
Short Run
04:54 Plymouth to London Paddington
05:23 Hereford to London Paddington
05:33 Plymouth to London Paddington
05:55 Plymouth to London Paddington
06:00 Bedwyn to London Paddington
06:37 Plymouth to London Paddington
06:48 Exeter St Davids to Exmouth
07:03 London Paddington to Paignton
07:38 Bristol Temple Meads to Penzance
07:40 Bristol Temple Meads to Westbury
08:35 Plymouth to London Paddington
10:35 London Paddington to Exeter St Davids
12:15 Penzance to London Paddington
Delayed
23:45 London Paddington to Penzance
05:03 Penzance to London Paddington
06:05 Penzance to London Paddington
07:10 Penzance to London Paddington
08:03 London Paddington to Penzance
08:15 Penzance to London Paddington
09:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
09:37 London Paddington to Paignton
10:04 London Paddington to Penzance
11:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 29, 2024, 07:16:50 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[82] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[76] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[74] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
[67] Return of the BRUTE?
[57] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[46] 2024 - Service update and amendment log, Swindon <-> Westbury...
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
Author Topic: Graduated driving licenses??  (Read 6235 times)
CyclingSid
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1918


Hockley viaduct


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2021, 07:22:33 »

As has been said, a thorny problem. A recent case from the cycling press:
https://road.cc/content/news/94-year-old-killed-cyclist-while-driving-golf-club-282077

When I first read it I thought is it sensible at 94 to ban them for four years and then allow them back on the road, "extended test" or not.
The last motoring event with the Duke of Edinburgh is a similar case. It is difficult to give up after a lifetime of "independence". There is also the issue of rural dwellers, which brings us back to public transport, although hardly an issue for the Duke of Edinburgh.

Having just renewed my driving licence for the first time, somebody said "but you now have to renew it every three years" obviously thinking that was an infringement of their civil liberties. I haven't driven for years and have no intention of ever again, but it is a useful form of identification (as we appear to have a problem with ID cards in this country).
Logged
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4356


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2021, 08:29:14 »

The over 70's driver hit the headlines when they are involved in an accident because its quite rare when you compare the to the under 25's.

Its the under 25's that need to have speed limiters fitted, and a limit on horse power


The over 70's like any age group its having the discussion with them ................ should you really be driving there are after all appalling, negligent, dangerous, etc drives in all age groups who should not be allowed to drive
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2021, 10:10:26 »


In parts of Europe vehicles are available called VSPs, which may be loosely translated as "yours without permit" They are limited to 28 MPH and in some countries can be used lawfully by anyone over 14, after a few hours instruction. No insurance, MOT certificate or full licence is required.



If there's no insurance, what happens in the event of an accident? (for example)

About the same as in the event of an accident involving a horse, an ebike, a mobility scooter, or even an oversize pedestrian.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7156


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2021, 10:43:37 »


In parts of Europe vehicles are available called VSPs, which may be loosely translated as "yours without permit" They are limited to 28 MPH and in some countries can be used lawfully by anyone over 14, after a few hours instruction. No insurance, MOT certificate or full licence is required.

If there's no insurance, what happens in the event of an accident? (for example)

About the same as in the event of an accident involving a horse, an ebike, a mobility scooter, or even an oversize pedestrian.

Indeed. Did I ever tell you about the time a horse ran in to my car?

And it would make more sense in a country where most people have public liability insurance for the whole family - which for some reason we've never gone in for.
Logged
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4256


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2021, 11:06:57 »

It's a problem but not just for the elderly. A friend started learning to drive when she was about 18 (she's now in her 40s) and soon found that although there was no legal medical reason for her not to drive, because of her unusual vision problems, she never felt safe or competent. Her instructor said she should carry on and she had no trouble passing the sight requirement for a driving test, but she is unable to focus on moving objects. The legal standard for sight for a driving test, reading a static number plate, is a mockery. She then had a battle on her hands trying to voluntarily turn in her licence. Turns out it's very difficult to get yourself declared physically unfit to drive!
Logged

Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2021, 12:11:05 »

Hopefully, she's sensible enough not to try & drive. I share her problem.

It's very hard to get that declaration, especially proving that type of disability in order to access other assistance with disability transport!
Logged
TonyK
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6435


The artist formerly known as Four Track, Now!


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2021, 13:56:13 »

What I see emerging from all this is that the key factor is whether an individual can judge their own limitations, especially as they decline only slowly. Most elderly drivers do that pretty well at the moment. But it's not something that's assessed by any test - not a driving test, nor the medical questionnaire, nor the new idea being discussed here.

That, but not only that. I have known at least two people who knew their limitations and the effect that disclosure would have had, so kept schtum. In both cases it was eyesight. One decided never to drive at night nor out of her local area, but turned up at my house for a cuppa after visiting a friend, before the 20 mile slog home in the dark. "Don't worry, I'll be fine". The other pulled a deserved 18-month ban after driving home from the pub. He was offered a 6 month reduction in exchange for attending a course, but declined because he knew he would fail the eyesight test. He was then under 60, and also avoided visiting the optician because in his view, if he wasn't told, it didn't matter. If I know two, there must be thousands like them out there.

In a city, giving up the car can be a fairly easy decision to make. For all its faults, the public transport in Bristol at least exists. Where I now live, the last bus from the station some 3 miles distant is around 7pm, at which time the taxis all knock off and go home too. That complicates the picture. I am, though, of a similar mind to broadgage, and don't think a partial exemption from the rules is workable or fair on everyone.
Logged

Now, please!
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2021, 14:17:39 »

A test re-take for everyone at certain ages to be determined - possibly every 10 years from a starting point, reducing to every 5 years at an older point in time. Fair on everyone, anda driver for further jobs paid by those retaking the tests.

I'd start at 50 for every 10 years, and say 70 for every 5 years onwards. BUt open for other views.

Along maybe for a review of the eyesight test to be improved too.
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2021, 15:43:32 »

A test re-take for everyone at certain ages to be determined - possibly every 10 years from a starting point, reducing to every 5 years at an older point in time. Fair on everyone, anda driver for further jobs paid by those retaking the tests.

I'd start at 50 for every 10 years, and say 70 for every 5 years onwards. BUt open for other views.

Along maybe for a review of the eyesight test to be improved too.

That sounds reasonable, and I would add that after a driving ban, that a new test should be passed before starting to drive again.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7747



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2021, 17:58:51 »


In parts of Europe vehicles are available called VSPs, which may be loosely translated as "yours without permit" They are limited to 28 MPH and in some countries can be used lawfully by anyone over 14, after a few hours instruction. No insurance, MOT certificate or full licence is required.



If there's no insurance, what happens in the event of an accident? (for example)

About the same as in the event of an accident involving a horse, an ebike, a mobility scooter, or even an oversize pedestrian.

Not a very good idea then
Logged
Surrey 455
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1229


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2021, 18:54:52 »

A younger person may drive a thousand miles per week in connection with work, but someone at the frailer end of the spectrum may only drive to and from a shopping area or supermarket. Our young man may have driven his lorry from the depot five miles away to Istanbul and back, and begun to plan that long soak in the bath when he failed to spot a hazard, whereas his neighbour of more tender years could have just collected the guide dog from the vets after a routine service, and chanced upon a visitor who didn't know to get out of the way whenever they heard him coming.

I hope the guide dog belongs to a friend or relative. I would be worried if it was his/her own.  Grin

Also, do guide dogs have to undergo the equivalent of an MOT?  Huh
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2021, 11:18:02 »

Guide dogs have regular vet checks for general health and fitness which I suppose is somewhat comparable to an MOT.
They are normaly retired at a certain age, but this can be extended a bit if still fit, active, and suitably alert.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TonyK
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6435


The artist formerly known as Four Track, Now!


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2021, 16:00:32 »

A younger person may drive a thousand miles per week in connection with work, but someone at the frailer end of the spectrum may only drive to and from a shopping area or supermarket. Our young man may have driven his lorry from the depot five miles away to Istanbul and back, and begun to plan that long soak in the bath when he failed to spot a hazard, whereas his neighbour of more tender years could have just collected the guide dog from the vets after a routine service, and chanced upon a visitor who didn't know to get out of the way whenever they heard him coming.

I hope the guide dog belongs to a friend or relative. I would be worried if it was his/her own.  Grin

Also, do guide dogs have to undergo the equivalent of an MOT?  Huh

A bit of routine hyperbole on my part to try to lighten my day. Lockdown is getting to me.

A test re-take for everyone at certain ages to be determined - possibly every 10 years from a starting point, reducing to every 5 years at an older point in time. Fair on everyone, anda driver for further jobs paid by those retaking the tests.

I'd start at 50 for every 10 years, and say 70 for every 5 years onwards. BUt open for other views.

Along maybe for a review of the eyesight test to be improved too.

This is attractive at first glance, but I don't think it stands up to deeper thinking. I used to fly aeroplanes, albeit with the NPPL in mind, a sort of light licence which would allow me to fly only single -engine non-complex aircraft under 1000 Kg, 4-seat maximum, VFR (Visual Flight Rules) only, always in sight of the ground, and within the UK (United Kingdom). The medical requirement was the same as for a HGV licence, a self-declaration signed off by my own GP every 5 years in exchange for a tenner. The required flying time to stay current is surprisingly short. For a full private pilots licence, I would need an examination by a specialist medical examiner starting at around £250 every 3 years, becoming annual after (I think) 45 years old. For the professionals, the examination is more gruelling and more expensive, and is accompanied by a 6-monthly skills test. For driving after 60 or 70, something equivalent to the HGV option would seem useful, but it imposes a higher standard of fitness on older people than is required for the younger folks with poor eyesight and /or co-ordination. The medical requirement for driving a private car is not at all rigorous - if you have two of most things and one of everything else, you will probably pass, unless you suffer fits without warning.

The things that set the HGV test apart from the private test include diabetes and high blood pressure, and the consequential side effects of both. A reasonable guess of someone's likely fitness on those grounds could be made with an eyesight test and a bathroom scale. Family doctors currently struggle to find hours in the day to treat patients, so won't want to be involved in any form of testing for something that isn't a medical necessity. Some would argue against using patients' health records anyway, in case the fear of losing a licence deterred people from seeking treatment for proscribed conditions. A new government agency to do the job would soon run up a six-month waiting list and do a patchy service across different parts of the country (trust me - I was a civil servant), becoming a box-ticking exercise rather than a solution to a problem, and would devote most of its effort to seeing perfectly healthy people.

Then we come to the biggest obstacle to all of this - which political party is going to include in its manifesto legislation to stop older people driving, and taking away those freedoms (as the Express would put it) gained only through two world wars, one world cup, and Brexit? Given that older people are more likely to vote, it won't happen unless both major parties agree, which also won't happen. My view - there is already a requirement for drivers to disclose poor eyesight and certain  medical conditions. This should be enforced more effectively, with lifetime bans for anyone who says "Yes" when the answer should be "No". The current process for renewing a licence at 70 should look less like a "Sign here for your licence please" form, and more like a demand for answers.

As for an exemption for small vehicles or limited range - no. All or nothing.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 16:48:40 by TonyK » Logged

Now, please!
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2021, 21:44:57 »

I disagree with the view that driving should be "all or nothing"  and consider that a small lightweight vehicle of limited speed should be allowed to persons denied a licence.
There has to be a line drawn somwhere.

But what exactly should we allow ? without a driving licence.

Walking, obviously.
Pedal cycle, no restriction at present.
Electricaly assisted cycle, allowed at present.
Mobility scooter, of course.
Horse, either riden or pulling a vehicle, not that popular but allowed.

2 seater car of very limited speed and weight, not permitted at present but in my view should be allowed.
Such vehicles should be strictly limited in speed and weight, and be as simple to operate as possible.

Broadgage approved specification.
Limited empty weight, limited gross weight.
Max speed 25 or 28 miles an hour.
Automatic parking brake, is applied when the "ignition" is turned off. User can not forget to apply parking brake.
Marker lights automatic, cant be turned off when vehicle in use.
Reverse gear limited to 3 MPH, safer if selected by mistake.
"Tortoise mode" when battery is low.
Electric power, charges from any standard socket outlet, input current limited to 10 amps. Double insulated, no earth required or permitted. Suplied with 2 core charging cable.

The UK (United Kingdom) civil service would like to over complicate this and should be kept in check.

Available for use by anyone over 14 after a few hours instruction.

Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
DaveHarries
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 259



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2021, 23:16:31 »

Indeed. Did I ever tell you about the time a horse ran in to my car?
Neigh. Roll Eyes Grin Reminds me of the time though when, at the vehicle rental firm I work for, a client in one of our vehicles (Mercedes B180 IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly)) hit a horse, I believe, on exposed moorland - near Rhymney (Valleys) I think -  and it wrecked the vehicle. I shouldn't imagine the poor horse fared much better. The vehicle sat in the depot for ages with a dent on the bonnet that was deep enough for a large bird bath. Car was eventually scrapped.

Its the under 25's that need to have speed limiters fitted, and a limit on horse power
I have had similar thoughts in the past but would do things a touch differently and have it so that the maximum engine size you can own on your car depends on how you behave on the road. If you behave well then it goes up every, say 3 years. So, for example, for someone who gets a licence at the age of 18:

Cat 1: 1.4L engine, unmodified.
Cat 2: 1.6L engine
Cat 3: 1.8L engine
Cat 4: 2.0L engine or above.

You would not be able to go up to something more powerful for a minimum 3 year period. Misbehaving by, say, getting more than a certain number of points in a 3 year period, results in going down 1 category for minor offences but worse offences, such as D.U.I, can drop more than 1 category.

Dave
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page