The final batches of trains from York works - two different futures

[whole diary]

[grahame]

The electric class 365 - the final trains manufactured at York Works - are withdrawn from service this weekend. Classes 165 anad 166 - diesel trains manufactured at the same works a little earlier and externally looking similar - are the "new" trains we have received in the Bristol / West area in the last few years. 

As local / short distance trains, we have much to thank the 165/166 units for; being 2 and 3 carriages replacing the 1 carriage 153s has done necessary wonders for capacity. But isn't it a bit ironic that the older diesel trains remain for the at least the medium term, when the newer electric trains are gone?  Wouldn't it have been better to have done some more electrification so that the electric trains, which should have a longer and cleaner life anyway, could have continued in productive service?

[grahame]

I have just noticed - we have reached a milestone - this is topic number 25,000!

http://www.passenger.chat/25000

.

[eightonedee]

I for one am sorry to see them being withdrawn. On the few occasions I travelled on them they struck me as a much more comfortable experience than their Turbo cousins, not least because they had 4 across seating not 5.

No doubt someone on this forum will tell me why it cannot be done, but they look a better basis for conversion to bi- or tri-mode operation then the (older still)319/769s we are getting on the North Downs, at least from the passengers' point of view, especially for passengers to and from Gatwick with luggage.  Too late now I guess.

[Celestial]

I for one am sorry to see them being withdrawn. On the few occasions I travelled on them they struck me as a much more comfortable experience than their Turbo cousins, not least because they had 4 across seating not 5.

No doubt someone on this forum will tell me why it cannot be done, but they look a better basis for conversion to bi- or tri-mode operation then the (older still)319/769s we are getting on the North Downs, at least from the passengers' point of view, especially for passengers to and from Gatwick with luggage.  Too late now I guess.

I think I read in Modern Railways a few months back that some of the middle cars may be used to lengthen the Class 165s to 5 cars with a hydrive conversion (whatever that is), if the prototype is successful. Quite whether any proposal that increases capacity is likely to see the light of day in the current environment must be very doubtful however. The project may already have died a death.

[Lee]

The electric class 365 - the final trains manufactured at York Works - are withdrawn from service this weekend. Classes 165 anad 166 - diesel trains manufactured at the same works a little earlier and externally looking similar - are the "new" trains we have received in the Bristol / West area in the last few years. 

As local / short distance trains, we have much to thank the 165/166 units for; being 2 and 3 carriages replacing the 1 carriage 153s has done necessary wonders for capacity. But isn't it a bit ironic that the older diesel trains remain for the at least the medium term, when the newer electric trains are gone?  Wouldn't it have been better to have done some more electrification so that the electric trains, which should have a longer and cleaner life anyway, could have continued in productive service?

Awkward moments part 1 - When you settle down for a programme called "AC Grayling" and realise it's about philosophy rather than a documentary on succesive government's faliures on rail electrification...

[TonyK]

Awkward moments part 1 - When you settle down for a programme called "AC Grayling" and realise it's about philosophy rather than a documentary on succesive government's faliures on rail electrification...

I think that hints broadly at the answer. EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) have a lifespan. The 365s reached it after a midlife refurb, and unusually have been retired. DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit), and the High Speed Train's (HST^▸ (High Speed Train))s, were deployed as a stopgap until electrification could be completed. Replacing them with a new diesel model would be an admission of failure, and would probably kick off yet another scrap with the environmentalists. They would ask, not unreasonably, why a government that says it is committed to the end of new fossil fuel cars in 2030 is commissioning new diesel trains that will be running 20 years after that. So the 165s get a Trigger's broom-style makeover and a welcome bordering on rapture at their new homes.

By 2060 the best paid jobs will be in keeping petrol and diesel engines working for a few months longer.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym

[stuving]

I for one am sorry to see them being withdrawn. On the few occasions I travelled on them they struck me as a much more comfortable experience than their Turbo cousins, not least because they had 4 across seating not 5.

No doubt someone on this forum will tell me why it cannot be done, but they look a better basis for conversion to bi- or tri-mode operation then the (older still)319/769s we are getting on the North Downs, at least from the passengers' point of view, especially for passengers to and from Gatwick with luggage.  Too late now I guess.

I think I read in Modern Railways a few months back that some of the middle cars may be used to lengthen the Class 165s to 5 cars with a hydrive conversion (whatever that is), if the prototype is successful. Quite whether any proposal that increases capacity is likely to see the light of day in the current environment must be very doubtful however. The project may already have died a death.

HyDrive is name used by Magtec for their diesel/battery drive systems, and for a prototype they are doing for Angel and Chiltern based on a 165. It involves taking off the motors and drives, and fitting smaller motors, batteries, and a new motor driving the existing bogies. It was meant to be out on trial in 2019, but is still in the works. Angel released what looks like an older video (and is very date-free) in March this year.

I can see why Magtec want to use one of their own, new and efficient, motors. But it still seems on the surface to be a better trick to play on 365s, which already have bogie-mounted 3-phase motors. Even if you want to replace the GTO thyristor drives (old, but which can do regeneration), it seems like less work.

Plus, as of this week, someone in DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) (who own a load of those 365s, as it happens) may have been having a rethink about the value having of old DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) sitting in sidings - just in case.

[Celestial]

HyDrive is name used by Magtec for their diesel/battery drive systems, and for a prototype they are doing for Angel and Chiltern based on a 165. It involves taking off the motors and drives, and fitting smaller motors, batteries, and a new motor driving the existing bogies. It was meant to be out on trial in 2019, but is still in the works. Angel released what looks like an older video (and is very date-free) in March this year.

I can see why Magtec want to use one of their own, new and efficient, motors. But it still seems on the surface to be a better trick to play on 365s, which already have bogie-mounted 3-phase motors. Even if you want to replace the GTO thyristor drives (old, but which can do regeneration), it seems like less work.

Plus, as of this week, someone in DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) (who own a load of those 365s, as it happens) may have been having a rethink about the value having of old DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) sitting in sidings - just in case.

Thanks! I appreciate the explanation.

[rogerw]

The 365s have been handed back to a ROSCO^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) or will be shortly so that DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) will not be the owners

[stuving]

The 365s have been handed back to a ROSCO^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) or will be shortly so that DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) will not be the owners

Since 2019 the 365s were owned by Train Fleet (2019) Ltd, which is the ROSCO of last resort. it was set up then to buy them back from RBS as "unwanted", and is a subsidiary of DfT OLR Holdings Limited - as are London North Eastern Railway Limited and Northern Trains Limited. I can't see any news of them being sold on - indeed, the company's latest, and also first, accounts (for the year to March 2020) say:

"Since the start of trading, the majority of the Company's fleet of Class 365 trains has continued to operate in passenger traffic, earning rental income for the company. The rental income is expected to continue to allow it to generate positive cash flow for the foreseeable future. The remainder is in store and available to rent.

There is an ongoing stream of potential rental opportunities for the remainder of the fleet, and these are being continuously explored, but the nature of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) rollings stock market is that these take many months or years to mature."

Funny idea of foreseeable future, eh? The tangible assets of the company (i.e. trains) were listed as £102,393, marked down from the purchase price of £123,639. At that price one would be quite cheap to buy to convert into a house, wouldn't it?

[Electric train]

Don't forget that other parts of the 'Networker' fleet are still in service the 465 & 466 built ate York between 1991 and 1994 by BREL^▸ (British Rail Engineering Ltd) / ABB

[TonyK]

The obvious question - is there something wrong with the 365 as a class that has led to their early (in comparison to other trains) departure?

[IndustryInsider]

We were extremely close to getting some of them for the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) franchise alongside the 387s.  In the end more new 387s were ordered.