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Author Topic: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount  (Read 7926 times)
grahame
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« on: April 16, 2021, 08:45:59 »

From the Association of British Commuters (Brighton line passenger group)

Quote
Flexible season tickets finally revealed and as we predicted, it's a HUGE disappointment:
They're just carnet tickets, offering a 15% discount on peak fares.
The cost of commuting 3 days a week will be MORE expensive than a full-month season ticket.

Link to Paywalled Daily Telegraph article

and comment from ABC

Quote
Here's the London to Brighton example explained in the Telegraph: "The cost of travelling three days a week on carnet tickets would actually be more expensive than buying a standard monthly season ticket on typical routes. For example, based on a £45.60 standard fare between London and Brighton, each carnet will cost £193.80.

Buying three carnets to travel three days a week over the month would cost £581.40 - considerably more than a monthly season ticket that costs £414.40."

Looking at the same calculation (rumour mill, so assumption that base data is valid) ...

Melksham to London (via Swindon)
Standard return fare - £186.80
Three days a week x 4 weeks = £2241.60
15% reduction on a carnet reduces that to £1905.36

Monthly season ticket - £1015.70

So three days a week still much, much more expensive than a five day season ticket. Not a suitable product in this scenario!

Were I working in London, I might choose to travel up on the 10:02 and back on the evening train - at £64.70 super off peak return per day - £776.40 spend in the 4 week month.
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ellendune
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2021, 09:06:27 »

The problem these daily commuters seem not to realise is that the politicians have protected them from the price rises that in many cases other rail users have had to suffer for many years so by comparison their season ticket costs are ridiculously cheap. I see it the other way round actually that we ordinary rail users in the peak should be paying less, not season ticket holders more. If you could go back to the 1950's or 60's what then was the ratio of the season ticket to the normal fare?
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didcotdean
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2021, 15:34:28 »

A clearer way of looking at this for me in pricing terms at least is 20 journeys for the price of 17.

This is marginally better than currently offered by the likes of Great Northern, Thameslink, and Chiltern for a Carnet which is 20 journeys for the price of 18, but marginally worse than Gatwick Express which is 20 journeys for the price of 16.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2021, 17:53:26 »

The problem these daily commuters seem not to realise is that the politicians have protected them from the price rises that in many cases other rail users have had to suffer for many years so by comparison their season ticket costs are ridiculously cheap. I see it the other way round actually that we ordinary rail users in the peak should be paying less, not season ticket holders more. If you could go back to the 1950's or 60's what then was the ratio of the season ticket to the normal fare?


Buying virtually any product or service "in bulk" or in advance attracts a discount. In return it provides certainty for the vendor.

In this context however, no reasonable person would, however, consider it "cheap", especially where London travel is factored in.

The fact that peak tickets for individual journeys are often ludicrously expensive is another issue, but being able to buy a season ticket merely mitigates this, it certainly doesn't make it "cheap".

You are correct however that "ordinary" rail users shouldn't have to pay so much - it may well be that given a vastly reduced load of commuters, other tickets may be made cheaper in an attempt to make up lost demand?
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ellendune
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2021, 19:17:15 »

The problem these daily commuters seem not to realise is that the politicians have protected them from the price rises that in many cases other rail users have had to suffer for many years so by comparison their season ticket costs are ridiculously cheap. I see it the other way round actually that we ordinary rail users in the peak should be paying less, not season ticket holders more. If you could go back to the 1950's or 60's what then was the ratio of the season ticket to the normal fare?


Buying virtually any product or service "in bulk" or in advance attracts a discount. In return it provides certainty for the vendor.

In this context however, no reasonable person would, however, consider it "cheap", especially where London travel is factored in.

The fact that peak tickets for individual journeys are often ludicrously expensive is another issue, but being able to buy a season ticket merely mitigates this, it certainly doesn't make it "cheap".

You are correct however that "ordinary" rail users shouldn't have to pay so much - it may well be that given a vastly reduced load of commuters, other tickets may be made cheaper in an attempt to make up lost demand?

When I last checked the Swindon Weekly season was about the same as 2 anytime return tickets. That's a huge discount for quantity! IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly) the ratio is less marked inside the former NSE (Network South East) area.
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eXPassenger
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2021, 22:17:24 »

Prior to 2011 when I split my time between Bristol and London I was amazed to find that a monthly 1st class season was less than 2 1st class anytime returns a week for 4 weeks, and was even better value in 5 week months.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2021, 10:55:28 »

Firstly, the i paper has carried this story also so definitely in the public demand & therefore this thread could be made public on Fare's Fair board.

There is an error in those ABC calculations.

The carnet offered is 5 return journeys over a month validity. So how many months are 5 weeks long? (3 days a week meaning buying 3 carnets/month as per their example)

That's the equivalent of 5 weeks travel, not a month. Only 4 would be needed for February & any other month with 5 weekends in it. Used consecutively, each carnet would last 1.66667 weeks.

Then there's at least 4 weeks holiday.

Plus bank holidays (of which there are 8 more) - one reason to choose to travel to work on Mondays & Fridays? So let's assume you can make use of at least 5 of these (i.e. one carnet's-worth)

So, to get maximum flexibility, one buys your carnets consecutively, rather than what you need all at once to get through a month - so each carnet is valid for the month after purchase.

52 weeks less 4 weeks holiday and a further carnet knocked off for bank holidays non-travel.

48 weeks (144 days travel @ 3 days/week) divided by 5 days/carnet = 28.8 (so 29 to full carnets)/year - less one carnet for bank holidays not travelled = 28 carnets.

£193.80 quoted per carnet x 28 = £5,426.40/year divided by 12 = £452.20/month.

Still more than the monthly ticket at £414.40 - but not *that* much - and certainly not what ABC calculate!

Possibly about right seeing as you get discounts based on bulk purchasing in advance - so generally around 22 return journeys purchased in advance for a monthly as opposed to just 5 returns for a carnet.

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grahame
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2021, 11:53:28 »

Firstly, the i paper has carried this story also so definitely in the public demand & therefore this thread could be made public on Fare's Fair board.

OK - I have found the same story, public readable and not paywalled, in various other places now - for example in The Standard.

Quote
Flexible rail season tickets which are 15% cheaper than peak fares are being planned by the Government and train operators, it has been reported.

Passengers in England will be able to purchase French-style carnet tickets allowing them to make five return journeys in a month under a new system to be rolled out in June, according to the Daily Telegraph.

Commuters who want to use the scheme but travel more than once per week would be required to purchase additional carnets, which could end up being more expensive than existing monthly passes.

"It would provide a better deal for those commuting two days a week, but it’s not suited to three-day-a-week commuters"

Under the plan, someone travelling between Brighton and London Victoria buying three carnets for three return journeys per week over a month would pay £581.40, whereas a monthly ticket that can be used every day is £414.40.

Article continues.

I will switch to "Fares' Fair"
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grahame
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2021, 16:18:38 »

Press release 19th April 2021 (from Railfuture)

Quote
New rail fares to penalise many long distance commuters?

Rail campaigners are disappointed by plans for a new ticket for part time commuters which would give an across-the-board 15% discount for regular travellers.

“A 15% discount sounds good, but it means that many longer distance travellers who only commute a few days a week won’t save any money at all” said Railfuture director Neil Middleton, who is leading the campaign for better fares for part time commuters. “Traditional season tickets give larger discounts for longer distance commuting and it could still work out cheaper to get a five-days-a-week season ticket and use it only for three, than to buy these new tickets.”

"If the government wants people to be in the workplace more often, it needs to price rail travel to encourage this. Instead, these inadequate proposals will make it much more difficult for the government to achieve its targets for carbon reduction when commuters switch to car use, as rail is a much greener way to travel.”

“It seems very contrary that on the one hand, Rishi Sunak talks about benefits an organisation gets from people actually spending physical time together, and on the other, the Treasury puts cost as a centrepiece of their objections. This seems to do nothing for growth and workplace efficiency, nor, it seems, recognise that by providing fair fares, part time commuters are encouraged to travel to their workplace more often.”

“What we’re calling for is a system of carnet tickets to better bridge the gap between the cost of the traditional day ticket and the season ticket.”
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grahame
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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2021, 05:29:50 »

From The I

Quote
Plans for flexible rail season tickets designed to lure back people to using trains will not offer value for long-distance commuters, it is claimed.

Under plans set to be announced by transport secretary Grant Shapps this week, commuters will be offered a carnet of tickets offering them eight return journeys per month and the chance to buy more after June 21, according to the Sunday Times.

The new flexi-season ticket system, being brought in to adapt the railways to a new era of hybrid working brought about by the pandemic, will give commuters the extra option of paying for an unlimited travel season ticket or having to buy a separate ticket for every journey.

Travel costs for long-distance journeys are unlikely to fall because season-tickets currently allow travellers to pay for less than two days a week at full fare rates. But the flexi-tickets should provide value for those making short to medium commutes two or three days a week, including the Stockport to Manchester route, in which a daily full fare is priced £6.70 and a weekly one costs £24.20.

[Continues]
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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2021, 06:47:48 »

Carnet ticketing may be an option, from my understanding it is the least favourite certainly in paper from.   Carnet may be an option initially until the 'flexible' ticketing based on contactless bank card systems are introduced.
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grahame
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2021, 23:47:48 »

Example from Birmingham Mail

Quote
Post-pandemic commuters could save £120 on rail fares to city with new flexi tickets
Carnet-style deal aimed at workers splitting their time between home and the office


The Department for Transport highlighted a £120 saving on journeys between Bromsgrove and Birmingham for commuters travelling three times a week, compared with buying daily tickets.

The Department for Transport highlighted a £120 saving on journeys between Bromsgrove and Birmingham for commuters travelling three times a week, compared with buying daily tickets, or if you compare 3 days a week with 7 days a week rather than 5.

Anytime Single £6.70
Anytime Day Return £8.20
Monthly Season £124.50

Say 20 working days on an old 5 day week in a month (allow a couple of days off)
Return tickets each day £164.00
Or done with 2 singles each day £268.00

12 days (3 per week / odd day off)
Return tickets each day £98.40
Or done with 2 singles each day £160.80

I may be blind - but the only way I can see a £120 saving is if you compare to buying single tickets individually for each journey. 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 00:05:05 by grahame » Logged

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grahame
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2021, 06:39:07 »

Example from Birmingham Mail

Quote
Post-pandemic commuters could save £120 on rail fares to city with new flexi tickets
Carnet-style deal aimed at workers splitting their time between home and the office


The Department for Transport highlighted a £120 saving on journeys between Bromsgrove and Birmingham for commuters travelling three times a week, compared with buying daily tickets.

[snip]

I may be blind - but the only way I can see a £120 saving is if you compare to buying single tickets individually for each journey. 

Silly me - they may be talking of an annual saving rather than monthly that I worked on above.  Reducing an annual season ticket of £1296.00 to a cost of £1176.00 for travel on carnets for someone who reduces their communing to the office to 3 days per week is entirely plausible.
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Phil
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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2021, 07:31:56 »

Quote
Many reforms will be brought before the body is launched.

Flexible season tickets will be introduced, offering savings on certain routes for people who travel to work two or three times a week.

These will go on sale on June 21 for use seven days later.


Yesterday's report on ITV set alarm bells ringing for me. I'm one of those who commutes 2 or 3 days a week, admittedly only 15 minutes each way, and I was quite looking forward to the introduction of flexible "carnets" or whatever - probably more for the convenience of not having to remember to log in and buy the following weeks' tickets every Sunday than the cost saving, which would be minimal on such a short journey. However the words "on certain routes" (the first time I've seen that) fills me with a sense of dreadful foreboding now...

edited to include link to source https://www.itv.com/news/2021-05-19/train-travel-to-be-overhauled-by-new-body-great-british-railways
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grahame
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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2021, 07:48:56 »


Silly me - they may be talking of an annual saving rather than monthly that I worked on above.  Reducing an annual season ticket of £1296.00 to a cost of £1176.00 for travel on carnets for someone who reduces their communing to the office to 3 days per week is entirely plausible.

Confirmed ... from Rail Business Daily[/quote]

Quote
In the short and medium term, the government will work closely with the sector on measures to encourage passengers back to rail. To reflect changes in the traditional commute and working life, the Government has today announced that a new national flexi season ticket will be on sale this summer, with potential savings of hundreds of pounds a year for 2 and 3 day-a-week commuters. Tickets will be on sale on 21 June, ready for use on 28 June.

Good news ... commuters pay around 10% less for their travel to work.
Bad news? ... cost per journey rockets? -  are you buying around half the product and still paying 90% of what you paid before?
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