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Author Topic: Problems with IET trains from April 2021  (Read 34393 times)
stuving
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« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2021, 09:41:20 am »

But presumably Hitachi specified or supplied the trolleys ? They have an Hitachi asset number affixed, or did when I last looked.

I'm not sure they did. Both the Master Availability and Reliability Agreement  (MARA (Master Availability and Reliability Agreement)) and Train Availability and Reliability Agreement (TARA (Train Availability and Reliability Agreement)) as published (dated 2014) include "Level 4 catering trolley" in their definition of terms under catering equipment, but neither mentions therm in the text. At that stage (after Agility was given a contract, but before the interior design was fixed) "trolley storage facilities" was listed as one of the subjects to be dealt with by "consultation with the user population" under "progressive design assurance".

It looks as if it became clear later on that the trolleys could only be sensibly kept with the trains in the depots, so were best maintained by the Train Service Provider (TSP (Train Service Provider)) (Agility). The way the contracts are set up that means the Train Service Provider(TSP) has to own them, but not necessarily decide their specification. However, they don't appear on the (very long) list of spares to be held by the Train Service Provider (TSP), so I assume this was a late change and covered by a contract change not in the public version.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 11:06:06 pm by VickiS » Logged
Lee
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« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2021, 10:38:16 am »

But presumably Hitachi specified or supplied the trolleys ? They have an Hitachi asset number affixed, or did when I last looked.

I'm not sure they did. Both the MARA (Master Availability and Reliability Agreement) and TARA (Train Availability and Reliability Agreement) as published (dated 2014) include "Level 4 catering trolley" in their definition of terms under catering equipment, but neither mentions therm in the text. At that stage (after Agility was given a contract, but before the interior design was fixed) "trolley storage facilities" was listed as one of the subjects to be dealt with by "consultation with the user population" under "progressive design assurance".

It looks as if it became clear later on that the trolleys could only be sensibly kept with the trains in the depots, so were best maintained by the TSP (Train Service Provider) (Agility). The way the contracts are set up that means the TSP has to own them, but not necessarily decide their specification. However, they don't appear on the (very long) list of spares to be held by the TSP, so I assume this was a late change and covered by a contract change not in the public version.

Before VickiS has reads this and has a coronary, MARA stands for "Master Availability and Reliability Agreement", TARA stands for "Train Availability and Reliability Agreement" and TSP stands for "Train Service Provider"

Hope that clarifies things more than my Marsh Barton post did...although I must give them bonus points for the use of "consultation with the user population" under "progressive design assurance" - Outstanding!
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stuving
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« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2021, 11:26:56 am »

Before VickiS has reads this and has a coronary, MARA (Master Availability and Reliability Agreement) stands for "Master Availability and Reliability Agreement", TARA (Train Availability and Reliability Agreement) stands for "Train Availability and Reliability Agreement" and TSP (Train Service Provider) stands for "Train Service Provider"

Hope that clarifies things more than my Marsh Barton post did...although I must give them bonus points for the use of "consultation with the user population" under "progressive design assurance" - Outstanding!

Of course the words chosen for the name of something, abbreviated or not, can be a poor guide to what it really is or does - as you hint there. The MARA is 731 pages of ... stuff (to be credited to Hogan Lovells International LLP), so there's plenty of room for things to hide until you search explicitly for them or stumble across them. For example:

Seats are included under progressive design assurance, with each mention worded as "seat design, including comfort". But there are more words about the "Seat Weight Model":
Quote
... the TSP will develop the seats for the Sets in a way that allows the Secretary of State to have full visibility of the weight issues relating to seats (which shall involve, as a minimum, the TSP providing the Secretary of State with a Seat Weight Model which shall be updated on a periodic basis as agreed by the parties to reflect the emerging Design), provided that in finalising the design of the seats, the TSP shall also comply with the other Requirements and the requirements of Applicable Laws and Standards and Applicable Derogations.

Seats also get a mention under "Glass Case Standards". What's one of them? (There is a definition provided, fortunately.)
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TonyK
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« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2021, 02:37:18 pm »

Before we lose sight of the original matter, have they been fixed yet?
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stuving
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« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2021, 04:50:45 pm »

Before we lose sight of the original matter, have they been fixed yet?

I've not seen any news. perhaps a more important question now is how many others have been found on inspection across all fleets. But replacing a few bogies should have been quite possible.

The Master Availability and Reliability Agreement (MARA (Master Availability and Reliability Agreement)) lists "major incident spares", essentially parts of the carriage bodies only likely to be bent by a collision, and "damage and vandalism spares", essentially running gear, some of them  likely to be broken by hitting things on the track or by passenger misbehaviour. However, the list also covers items needed for routine maintenance, where performance is the Train Service Provider's (TSP (Train Service Provider))'s responsibility. It may be hard to split that list on a "who pays" basis.


Either way, the level of spares holding should be a good guide to how many such things can be found at once. The parts' names, on the other hand, are hard to interpret in some cases without a labelled diagram. The list is is no logical order, and names short, so where bits go is ambiguous (e.g. is the "Lateral Bump Stop Rubber" part of a toilet door or a bogie?). These look relevant, or in some cases obvious things that may give some context:

Pantograph Complete             10
Vacuum Circuit Breaker (VCB (Vacuum Circuit Breaker - electrification))  5
Main Transformer                  2
Induction Traction Motor        6
Bogie Truck Assembly (Motor)  8
Bogie Frame                         4
Air Spring                            8
Traction Link                        6
Anti-Rolling Equipment           8
Wheel Set (M)                     16
Bogie Truck Assembly (Trailer) 6
Bogie Frame                         4
Wheel Set (T)                      16
Carbon Strip                        80
Wiper Blade With Rubber        80
Yaw Damper                        40
Lateral Damper                     40
Lateral Bump Stop Rubber      10
Brake Pad                           170
Primary Vertical Damper         40

That list is for the original GWR (Great Western Railway) 800/801 fleet, and appears to be subject to revision at the contract date. But it does suggest that enough bogies could be found quickly, unless they are all trailer bogies (I don't think they can be). Assuming this is still a production item, new castings to replace the cracked ones should also be available on a slightly longer timescale.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 11:07:55 pm by VickiS » Logged
VickiS
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« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2021, 11:06:37 pm »

But presumably Hitachi specified or supplied the trolleys ? They have an Hitachi asset number affixed, or did when I last looked.

I'm not sure they did. Both the MARA (Master Availability and Reliability Agreement) and TARA (Train Availability and Reliability Agreement) as published (dated 2014) include "Level 4 catering trolley" in their definition of terms under catering equipment, but neither mentions therm in the text. At that stage (after Agility was given a contract, but before the interior design was fixed) "trolley storage facilities" was listed as one of the subjects to be dealt with by "consultation with the user population" under "progressive design assurance".

It looks as if it became clear later on that the trolleys could only be sensibly kept with the trains in the depots, so were best maintained by the TSP (Train Service Provider) (Agility). The way the contracts are set up that means the TSP has to own them, but not necessarily decide their specification. However, they don't appear on the (very long) list of spares to be held by the TSP, so I assume this was a late change and covered by a contract change not in the public version.

Before VickiS has reads this and has a coronary, MARA stands for "Master Availability and Reliability Agreement", TARA stands for "Train Availability and Reliability Agreement" and TSP stands for "Train Service Provider"

Hope that clarifies things more than my Marsh Barton post did...although I must give them bonus points for the use of "consultation with the user population" under "progressive design assurance" - Outstanding!



Thank you very much Lee for that explenation! Much Apprechiated! Cheesy
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TonyK
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« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2021, 08:50:37 am »

So there are enough bogies and yaw dampers in stock to hopefully fix up a couple of trains until more can be brought in from Japan, if that is where they are made, or cast somewhere more local. This could be a very short term problem, provided a way of stopping it happening again has been found.
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2021, 09:19:05 am »

I think it’s probably worth pointing out that the fix for this fault is not changing bogies or yaw dampers, as a few posts above seem to be suggesting. The cracks that have been discovered are on the body shells in the area where the yaw damper brackets are welded to the body shell

Some photos and reporting can be found on the rail business UK (United Kingdom) website (free registration maybe required to access the full article) https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/fatigue-cracks-sideline-gwr-class-800s/59012.article
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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2021, 10:26:47 am »

I think it’s probably worth pointing out that the fix for this fault is not changing bogies or yaw dampers, as a few posts above seem to be suggesting. The cracks that have been discovered are on the body shells in the area where the yaw damper brackets are welded to the body shell

Some photos and reporting can be found on the rail business UK (United Kingdom) website (free registration maybe required to access the full article) https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/fatigue-cracks-sideline-gwr-class-800s/59012.article

I agree.

Hitachi will carry out monitoring of the fleet, identify if its a batch / build issue metallurgical analysis etc.  They will almost certainly conduct an engineering risk assessment into the likelihood, consequences and severity of a catastrophic failure.

What mitigations can they put in place, reduced max speed untill a repair is effected etc
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TonyK
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2021, 01:03:17 pm »

I think it’s probably worth pointing out that the fix for this fault is not changing bogies or yaw dampers, as a few posts above seem to be suggesting. The cracks that have been discovered are on the body shells in the area where the yaw damper brackets are welded to the body shell

Some photos and reporting can be found on the rail business UK (United Kingdom) website (free registration maybe required to access the full article) https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/fatigue-cracks-sideline-gwr-class-800s/59012.article

I agree.

Hitachi will carry out monitoring of the fleet, identify if its a batch / build issue metallurgical analysis etc.  They will almost certainly conduct an engineering risk assessment into the likelihood, consequences and severity of a catastrophic failure.

What mitigations can they put in place, reduced max speed untill a repair is effected etc

Thank you both, for that clarification.

This happens in aviation to a degree. A certain wide-bodied jet based on an adaptation of a previous model began to show cracks at one of the points that was different to the earlier plane. At 500 mph and 38,000 feet, any failure would have been catastrophic. A fix was quickly found, tested and applied, and monitoring afterwards has shown it to have been successful. I am sure we will soon see a similar outcome with the IETs (Intercity Express Train).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 09:44:39 am by TonyK » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2021, 03:17:56 am »

I think it’s probably worth pointing out that the fix for this fault is not changing bogies or yaw dampers, as a few posts above seem to be suggesting. The cracks that have been discovered are on the body shells in the area where the yaw damper brackets are welded to the body shell

Some photos and reporting can be found on the rail business UK (United Kingdom) website (free registration maybe required to access the full article) https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/fatigue-cracks-sideline-gwr-class-800s/59012.article

Thanks for that, I was presuming that the cracks were in the Yaw dampers or bogies, expensive but replaceable or repairable components.
Cracks in the body shell sound more challenging. Presumably minor cracks can be monitored or perhaps "stop drilled*" to prevent them spreading.
Major cracks would seem to require cutting out the damaged part and welding in a new section. Welding of aluminium is a challenge and there can be some risk of new cracks starting from the join.

Are there any publicly viewable pictures of the damage, not requiring membership or subscription to view ?

*"stop drilling" is a technique used primarily on aircraft. When a small and not yet dangerous fatigue crack occurs, it tends to spread because of the concentrated stress at the end of the crack. Spread can sometimes be prevented or delayed by drilling a small hole at the end of the crack. This spreads the forces around the circumference of the hole rather than concentrating them at one tiny point at the end of the crack.
Regular inspection is required not only of the "stop drilled" part, but also of similar parts elsewhere on the vehicle or on similar vehicles.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2021, 10:23:56 am »

Quote
However, we now have the vehicle numbers (814012 and 814013), and with formation data from the Spotlog site (now I wonder what that's about ...) these are both the same type and almost certainly type MEC3. So that's an intermediate motor coach, not a driving trailer as I had previously presumed.

814012 is out and about today on a diagram, so it can’t be too bad.  I imagine it’ll be more a case of monitoring rather than repair for the time being.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 10:38:10 am by IndustryInsider » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2021, 06:05:36 am »

Quote
Cancellations to services at London Paddington
Due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time at London Paddington fewer trains are able to run on some lines.
Train services running to and from this station have been cancelled. Disruption is expected until the end of the day.
Customer Advice
Owing to the short notice unavailability of carriages which form our High Speed train services there will be no train services or alternative means of transport available for throughout journeys, in either direction, on the following routes :-
.
London Paddington - Swindon - Bath Spa - Bristol Temple Meads.
.
London Paddington - Swindon - Bristol Parkway - Newport - Cardiff Central - Swansea.
.
London Paddington - Reading - Taunton - Exeter St Davids - Plymouth - Penzance.
.
London Paddington - Reading - Oxford - Evesham - Worcester - Great Malvern - Hereford.
.
London Paddington - Reading - Swindon - Gloucester - Cheltenham Spa.
.
INTENDING CUSTOMERS FOR THESE ROUTES ARE ADVISED NOT TO ATTEMPT TO TRAVEL

In those areas such as Paddington / Reading / Didcot Parkway / Oxford / Bristol & Exeter local areas / Cardiff - Portsmouth and around 75% of Plymouth - Penzance services will continue to operate.
.
Further Information

If you hold a valid single, return, or weekly ticket, you will be able to claim compensation for delays of 15 minutes or more. Please keep your ticket and visit GWR (Great Western Railway).com/DelayRepay

Last Updated:08/05/2021 05:54
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« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2021, 06:08:36 am »

Quote
Route affected
All LNER» (London North Eastern Railway - about) routes
 
TOC (Train Operating Company)(s) affected
LNER;
Description
A problem under investigation across the LNER route means services are subject to severe delays and cancellations today.
Customers are advised to not travel on LNER services today.
You are encouraged to use an alternative mode of transport to complete your journey today.
Customer Advice:
Due to social distancing requirements, seats are extremely limited on services and reservations are mandatory. Please visit the LNER website for more information.
LNER tickets for today are valid up to and including Sunday 16 May.
If you decide not to travel, a full refund is available. Please contact your original point of ticket purchase within 28 days to claim your refund.
Ticket Acceptance:
You may use routes listed on the following disruption map.
LNER tickets will be valid with the following train operating companies:
Avanti West Coast between London Euston and Manchester for customers with an open ticket
TransPennine Express between Manchester, Leeds and York
East Midlands Railway between London St Pancras International and Sheffield
Northern services between Sheffield, Leeds and York and via any other reasonable route
Thmeslink services between London, Stevenage and Peterborough
 
Rail replacement coaches are in operation at York, Newcastle and Edinburgh.
Check before you travel:
You can check your journey using the National Rail Enquiries real-time Journey Planner
Twitter:
If you would like to follow this incident on Twitter, please use #LNERUpdate
Compensation:
You may be entitled to compensation if you experience a delay in completing your journey today. Please keep your train ticket and make a note of your journey, as both will be required to support any claim.
Feedback:
We want to make information better – tell us how! Fill out this online Disruption Survey.
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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2021, 06:10:49 am »

Quote
Hull Trains services on all routes
 
TOC (Train Operating Company)(s) affected
Hull Trains;
Description
A fault with Hull Trains fleet of trains means that that there will be short notice cancellations to Hull Trains services today.
Alternative travel advice:
You may use your tickets on Northern services between Hull and Sheffield. Customers are able to use East Midlands Railway services between Sheffield and London St Pancras International.
Customers at Retford and Grantham are advised to await further instructions.
Check before you travel:
You can check your journey using the National Rail Enquiries real-time Journey Planner
Twitter:
If you would like to follow this incident on Twitter, please use #HullTrains
Compensation:
You may be entitled to compensation if you experience a delay in completing your journey today. Please keep your train ticket and make a note of your journey, as both will be required to support any claim.
Feedback:
We want to make information better – tell us how! Fill out this online Disruption Survey.
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