Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 17:55 28 Mar 2024
- How do I renew my UK passport and what is the 10-year rule?
- Passengers pleaded with knifeman during attack
* Family anger at sentence on fatal crash driver, 19
- Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
28th Mar (1992)
MOD Kineton tour, branch line society (*)

Train RunningCancelled
16:54 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
17:48 Reading to Gatwick Airport
17:54 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
17:57 London Paddington to Worcester Foregate Street
18:04 Bristol Temple Meads to Filton Abbey Wood
18:04 Bedwyn to Newbury
18:08 London Paddington to Frome
18:26 Newbury to Bedwyn
18:37 Westbury to Swindon
18:51 Filton Abbey Wood to Bristol Temple Meads
18:55 Bedwyn to Newbury
19:24 Newbury to Bedwyn
19:29 Gatwick Airport to Reading
19:33 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill
19:55 Bedwyn to Newbury
20:13 Swindon to Westbury
20:16 Frome to Westbury
20:49 Newbury to Bedwyn
20:56 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington
21:16 Bedwyn to Newbury
Short Run
14:49 Plymouth to Cardiff Central
15:10 Gloucester to Weymouth
15:15 Plymouth to London Paddington
15:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
15:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
15:42 Exeter St Davids to London Paddington
16:19 Carmarthen to London Paddington
16:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
16:35 London Paddington to Plymouth
16:50 Plymouth to London Paddington
17:03 London Paddington to Penzance
17:30 London Paddington to Taunton
17:30 Warminster to Bristol Temple Meads
17:36 Swindon to Westbury
17:36 London Paddington to Plymouth
18:18 Newbury to London Paddington
Delayed
13:59 Cardiff Central to Penzance
14:15 Penzance to London Paddington
14:36 London Paddington to Paignton
15:03 London Paddington to Penzance
16:03 London Paddington to Penzance
Additional 17:17 Exeter St Davids to Penzance
Additional 17:26 Castle Cary to Penzance
17:29 Gatwick Airport to Reading
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 28, 2024, 18:09:40 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[133] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[132] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[53] Return of the BRUTE?
[44] If not HS2 to Manchester, how will traffic be carried?
[41] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[32] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 49
  Print  
Author Topic: Problems with IET trains from April 2021  (Read 93543 times)
eightonedee
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1532



View Profile
« on: April 27, 2021, 18:32:32 »

Dipping into the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) Local News revealed the following-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-56902528

Perhaps some of our industry insiders have more information? It's just as well this has come to light (and hopefully will be resolved) in current circumstances when traffic is light.

Logged
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10095


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2021, 18:58:07 »

It doesn't sound like anything more than you might expect from a new train.  A bit more detail here, with poster Clarence Yard explaining the situation very well (as always) on the second page...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-withdraw-some-800s-due-to-cracks-in-yaw-damper-bolsters.216705/
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2021, 20:19:41 »

If this was an isolated problem,  I would be at least somewhat forgiving.
However taken together with all the other faults and failures, these are starting to look pretty rubbish.

Failure to couple and uncouple reliably, despite this being an "essential requirement"
Failure to cope with the waves at Dawlish, also an "essential requirement"
Overheating in hot weather.
Poor ride.
Unreliable toilets.
Unreliable reservations.
Poor quality trim and fittings.

And a general failure to meet the required levels of availability that resulted in frequent short formations, forgotten about  with the reduced passenger numbers in the pandemic. But no doubt to return.

The poor standards of passenger comfort and facilities are arguably due to the TOC (Train Operating Company) policy of "what downgrades can we get away with" and not Hitachi's fault, but still gives a poor impression.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Celestial
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 674


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2021, 20:58:28 »

If this was an isolated problem,  I would be at least somewhat forgiving.
However taken together with all the other faults and failures, these are starting to look pretty rubbish.

Failure to couple and uncouple reliably, despite this being an "essential requirement"
Failure to cope with the waves at Dawlish, also an "essential requirement"
Overheating in hot weather.
Poor ride.
Unreliable toilets.
Unreliable reservations.
Poor quality trim and fittings.

And a general failure to meet the required levels of availability that resulted in frequent short formations, forgotten about  with the reduced passenger numbers in the pandemic. But no doubt to return.

The poor standards of passenger comfort and facilities are arguably due to the TOC (Train Operating Company) policy of "what...
For one moment I thought I was going to get through a broadgage post on IETs (Intercity Express Train) without the inevitable word appearing. You teased me until almost the end.
Logged
TonyN
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 471



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2021, 21:37:28 »

It doesn't sound like anything more than you might expect from a new train.  A bit more detail here, with poster Clarence Yard explaining the situation very well (as always) on the second page...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-withdraw-some-800s-due-to-cracks-in-yaw-damper-bolsters.216705/

Having read the posts on railforums I am reminded that every time I travel over the Cotswold line on an IET (Intercity Express Train) there are some loud thumping noises while traversing the Paxford curves between Campden tunnel and Moreton in Marsh.
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2021, 23:50:47 »

For one moment I thought I was going to get through a broadgage post on IETs (Intercity Express Train) without the inevitable word appearing. You teased me until almost the end.

Which word ? I avoided calling them DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit), out of deference to those who state that they are not REALLY DMUs despite being powered by underfloor engines.
Neither did I mention buffets, as the lack thereof is not really Hitachi's fault.
Did not even mention the failed trolley service which IS PARTLY Hitachi's fault, since they designed the sloping floors, and they made the "greatly improved" trolleys. The steeply sloping floors, and "wonky wheels" on the trolleys were frequently given as reasons for no trolley/static trolley/hidden trolley. Such factors do not help, but I feel that GWR (Great Western Railway) are not serious about trolley provision, and regard this as a temporary or interim measure between a proper buffet and the longer term aim of nothing.(as on SWT (South West Trains), and others)
Did not even criticise the hard seats or lack of gangways.


Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7745



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2021, 06:55:20 »

For one moment I thought I was going to get through a broadgage post on IETs (Intercity Express Train) without the inevitable word appearing. You teased me until almost the end.

Which word ? I avoided calling them DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit), out of deference to those who state that they are not REALLY DMUs despite being powered by underfloor engines.
Neither did I mention buffets, as the lack thereof is not really Hitachi's fault.
Did not even mention the failed trolley service which IS PARTLY Hitachi's fault, since they designed the sloping floors, and they made the "greatly improved" trolleys. The steeply sloping floors, and "wonky wheels" on the trolleys were frequently given as reasons for no trolley/static trolley/hidden trolley. Such factors do not help, but I feel that GWR (Great Western Railway) are not serious about trolley provision, and regard this as a temporary or interim measure between a proper buffet and the longer term aim of nothing.(as on SWT (South West Trains), and others)
Did not even criticise the hard seats or lack of gangways.




That's most of the broadgage bingo card ticked off and it's not yet 0700!  An omen for a productive day?  Smiley
Logged
eightf48544
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4574


View Profile Email
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2021, 14:22:16 »

As the wellknown quote goes:

" 'To lose one set of yaw dampers (CAF) may be regarded as a misfortune, to lose two
(Hitachi) looks like carelessness."

Possibly a combination of inadequate design to cope with poor track as mentioned by TonyM
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2021, 16:18:29 »

Also concerning in my view is that these failures have occurred on what are still relatively new trains.
Fatigue failures have two main causes, poor design and a certain inevitability after the planned service life.

Good design consists largely of avoiding "stress raisers" such as sudden changes of shape or cross section in highly stressed components. For this reason the windows in aircraft and ships are either circular, or rectangular with rounded corners. A rectangular design with sharp corners would be liable to stress fractures at the corners. Likewise highly stressed engine components are designed without sharp corners. A narrow piston rod is connected to the wide piston by a curved formation not a straight transition from rod to disc, which would be liable to stress fractures.
Hitachi engineers are no doubt aware of this, it is basic engineering.
The other part of good design is selection of the correct materials, strong but not too hard/brittle. This is a bit more complex, and it is possible that unsuitable material was used, either wrongly specified, or correctly specified but the actual material used was different, perhaps in some subtle way that was not obvious.
And of course good design includes designing for the stresses to which a component will be subjected in its life. That includes rather a lot of unknowns.

Eventual fatigue failure is almost inevitable in highly stressed components, that is why intensively used aircraft have a limited life, determined in either flight hours, or by number of take off cycles. Life could be extended almost indefinitely by stronger construction, but that would render the machine too heavy to fly economically.

Fatigue failure after say 35 years, on a train designed to last 27.5 years would be nothing remarkable.
Fatigue failure only about 10% into the design life is much more concerning.
It suggests either poor design, defective materials, or the stresses being so badly under estimated that failure occurred very early in the planned life.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Lee
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7519


GBR - The Emperor's New Rail Network


View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2021, 17:03:20 »

Also concerning in my view is that these failures have occurred on what are still relatively new trains.
Fatigue failures have two main causes, poor design and a certain inevitability after the planned service life.

Good design consists largely of avoiding "stress raisers" such as sudden changes of shape or cross section in highly stressed components. For this reason the windows in aircraft and ships are either circular, or rectangular with rounded corners. A rectangular design with sharp corners would be liable to stress fractures at the corners. Likewise highly stressed engine components are designed without sharp corners. A narrow piston rod is connected to the wide piston by a curved formation not a straight transition from rod to disc, which would be liable to stress fractures.
Hitachi engineers are no doubt aware of this, it is basic engineering.
The other part of good design is selection of the correct materials, strong but not too hard/brittle. This is a bit more complex, and it is possible that unsuitable material was used, either wrongly specified, or correctly specified but the actual material used was different, perhaps in some subtle way that was not obvious.
And of course good design includes designing for the stresses to which a component will be subjected in its life. That includes rather a lot of unknowns.

Eventual fatigue failure is almost inevitable in highly stressed components, that is why intensively used aircraft have a limited life, determined in either flight hours, or by number of take off cycles. Life could be extended almost indefinitely by stronger construction, but that would render the machine too heavy to fly economically.

Fatigue failure after say 35 years, on a train designed to last 27.5 years would be nothing remarkable.
Fatigue failure only about 10% into the design life is much more concerning.
It suggests either poor design, defective materials, or the stresses being so badly under estimated that failure occurred very early in the planned life.

House!
Logged

Vous devez être impitoyable, parce que ces gens sont des salauds - https://looka.com/s/78722877
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4355


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2021, 17:16:11 »

The much exulted Mark 3 coach (Mk3) and High Speed Train (HST (High Speed Train)) power cars suffered from cracks in bogie components right from the early days in the mid 1970's.  The worse failure was the brake disks on the power cars.

Nothing new, remember these trains many more miles in a week than almost any other form of land vehicle,

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 23:01:40 by VickiS » Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10095


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2021, 17:27:38 »

This sort of thing happens with most new train designs as I said.  In fact it was a similar problem on a new train from a different manufacturer which prompted the check that led to its discovery on a small number of units.

I expect regular inspections, maintenance and an eventual modification will mean this is soon forgotten about by everyone...except Broadgage. Wink
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2021, 18:08:02 »

Even I will forgive and maybe forget, provided this does not become a frequently recurring or long ongoing problem.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Incider
Transport Scholar
Full Member
******
Posts: 98


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2021, 07:05:14 »

For one moment I thought I was going to get through a broadgage post on IETs (Intercity Express Train) without the inevitable word appearing. You teased me until almost the end.

Which word ? I avoided calling them DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit), out of deference to those who state that they are not REALLY DMUs despite being powered by underfloor engines.
Neither did I mention buffets, as the lack thereof is not really Hitachi's fault.
Did not even mention the failed trolley service which IS PARTLY Hitachi's fault, since they designed the sloping floors, and they made the "greatly improved" trolleys. The steeply sloping floors, and "wonky wheels" on the trolleys were frequently given as reasons for no trolley/static trolley/hidden trolley. Such factors do not help, but I feel that GWR (Great Western Railway) are not serious about trolley provision, and regard this as a temporary or interim measure between a proper buffet and the longer term aim of nothing.(as on SWT (South West Trains), and others)
Did not even criticise the hard seats or lack of gangways.




Hitachi don’t make the trolleys…..
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2021, 08:51:50 »

But presumably Hitachi specified or supplied the trolleys ? They have an Hitachi asset number affixed, or did when I last looked.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 49
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page