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Author Topic: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line  (Read 3010 times)
Rhydgaled
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« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2021, 07:50:24 pm »

Great to see Mk4 coaching stock being put to good use rather than being crushed.

Will make  a viable alternative to travelling on a Voyager via Birmingham. Fare is probably cheaper too. Thinking of from places like Westbury, Bath, Bristol to Manchester changing at Newport.

Why would people want to avoid travelling on a Voyager ? I thought that they were modernish purpose designed rolling stock, and surely far preferable to older trains.
Indeed Voyagers were considered such a great idea that broadly similar, short trains were ordered for many other routes.
Whatever next ! suggesting ways of avoiding IETs (Intercity Express Train) !
At the time they were built (before many seemed to have realised what a bad idea burning diesel was) there wasn't actually all that much wrong with the Voyagers - the interior layout was rubbish and they should have had more carriages but other than that they had potential. The 20 or so 5-car sets that were allocated to the West Coast franchise when XC was split off and went to Arriva actually ended up with one carriage with a half-decent interior. When travelling on the WCML (West Coast Main Line) in recent years I have aimed for that carriage - much better than the Pendolinos (which have windows so narrow they're hardly worth having) and I think we'd have been better off with 9-car straight-electric (EMU (Electric Multiple Unit)) Voyagers instead of Pendolinos. Shame the Arriva XC Voyagers don't have that carriage.


Whatever next ! suggesting ways of avoiding IETs !

You'll actually be able to construct quite long journeys avoiding IETs and Voyagers.

Penzance to Newport by direct Castle Class HST (High Speed Train).
Newport to Manchester Picc by Mk IV.
Manchester to Leeds by Mk V.
Leeds to London by Mk IV (for the next couple of years at least).

So Penzance to London all the way on proper rolling stock. Simples!


Not so simple. I understand the mark 5s aren't much different from an IET inside - they have the same 'interrogation centre style' hard seats. I think I read somewhere that the window alignment on the mark 5s is rubbish too (an IET might actually beat a mark 5 in that respect). Newport to Manchester won't all be mark 4. I hope that TfW and/or the Welsh Government will be persuaded to keep the current class 175 units (strengthened to 4/5 coach trains by running them in pairs) on the remaining services but fear that they will stick to KeliosAmey's plan to use new class 197 units which I understand also have the 'interrogation centre style' IET seat and don't have particularly great window alignment either.
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broadgage
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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2021, 01:57:48 am »


At the time they were built (before many seemed to have realised what a bad idea burning diesel was) there wasn't actually all that much wrong with the Voyagers - the interior layout was rubbish and they should have had more carriages but other than that they had potential.

I agree, but train length and internal layout are arguably the most important factors for most passengers. So stating that a rain type is OK apart being too short and having a poor  internal layout, is almost the same as saying "pretty rubbish in general"

I would go so far as say that even IETs (Intercity Express Train) have potential, if made full length and with a layout including padded seats, proper first class and a buffet.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
grahame
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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2021, 07:45:47 am »

I agree, but train length and internal layout are arguably the most important factors for most passengers.

No - not train length IMHO (in my humble opinion) - train loading.  People will be quite happy to sit in a 2 car 158 from Girvan to Stranraer, but not to travel on that same unit when running as the complete train from Temple Meads to Weston on a sunny summer Saturday morning.

And I would be very happy with a 10 car hourly IET (Intercity Express Train) from Paddington to Swindon that divides there, with just 5 cars forward to each of Cheltenham Spa and Weymouth each calling all stations.  Layout's acceptable - though more luggage space and tables for groups and workspace might be appreciated, and seat padding certainly would.

Wouldn't that be Wizard!
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Lee
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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2021, 08:30:48 am »

I would go so far as say that even IETs (Intercity Express Train) have potential, if made full length and with a layout including padded seats, proper first class and a buffet.

...and without quite so much cracking, or that general air of major generational project gone horribly wrong...
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2021, 08:34:39 am »

According to a transport focus survey, being on time and the cost of the ticket are more important than getting a seat.  Comfort of the seat is ranked down in 14th.

https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/publication/rail-passengers-priorities-for-improvement-2/
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PhilWakely
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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2021, 08:48:16 am »

According to a transport focus survey, being on time and the cost of the ticket are more important than getting a seat.  Comfort of the seat is ranked down in 14th.

https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/publication/rail-passengers-priorities-for-improvement-2/

Survey conducted amongst commuters, no doubt!  I wonder what the results would be when conducted on a PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-PNZ on a Summer Friday or PNZ-PAD on a Summer Sunday!
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« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2021, 08:59:19 am »

Quote from: PhilWakely
Survey conducted amongst commuters, no doubt!  I wonder what the results would be when conducted on a PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-PNZ on a Summer Friday or PNZ-PAD on a Summer Sunday!

I think they usually try and get a reasonably diverse range of responses, of which there were 14300 for this survey.

According to the page I linked to you can download a simulator ‘that you can use to run priorities for different groups of passengers. For example, by region, journey length, age or gender.’
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grahame
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« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2021, 10:21:37 am »


Whatever next ! suggesting ways of avoiding IETs (Intercity Express Train) !

You'll actually be able to construct quite long journeys avoiding IETs and Voyagers.

Penzance to Newport by direct Castle Class HST (High Speed Train).
Newport to Manchester Picc by Mk IV.
Manchester to Leeds by Mk V.
Leeds to London by Mk IV (for the next couple of years at least).

So Penzance to London all the way on proper rolling stock. Simples!



Or ... Penzance to London with a simple change at Exeter St Davids
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broadgage
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« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2021, 12:47:56 pm »

I would go so far as say that even IETs (Intercity Express Train) have potential, if made full length and with a layout including padded seats, proper first class and a buffet.

...and without quite so much cracking, or that general air of major generational project gone horribly wrong...

Is cracking much of a problem ?
I thought that Hitachi and GWR (Great Western Railway) were "coping well" with the challenges ?
And that a "near normal service" was being provided.
And that many of the short forms "are not IETs" and that some trains are actually full length.
And that IETs are so wonderful that other TOCs (Train Operating Company) are rushing to order them.

Would still like proper trains to the West country though.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2021, 01:17:30 pm »

Is cracking much of a problem ?
I thought that Hitachi and GWR (Great Western Railway) were "coping well" with the challenges ?
And that a "near normal service" was being provided.
And that many of the short forms "are not IETs (Intercity Express Train)" and that some trains are actually full length.

Cracking is a huge problem for GWR but they do seem to be coping reasonably well.  You're correct - a near normal service is indeed being provided (the few alterations to the printed timetables have been discussed already), and yes, many of the short forms are not IETs and never have been.

Today is not a good day, with 71 formation updates listed, but if we break them down:

33 are not IET operated services (the majority due to a 2-car operating on the Henley shuttle).
3 are now formed with the planned number of carriages.
12 are either 9 vice 10 or 10 vice 9 which makes practically no difference.
3 are long formed (9 vice 5).
20 are 5 vice 9 cars.

Twenty 5 vice 9s is not a great number, but they include such trains as 21:39 Weston to Bristol service, 19:50 Paddington to Hereford and 20:00 Bristol to Paddington - none of which are likely to be too busy, or quiet for the majority of the trip.
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bobm
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« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2021, 07:13:09 pm »

There was some proactive swapping of sets at Paddington in the light of the number of reservations made.   The 11:48 to Swansea was one - which was bumped up from 5 to 9 to cater for the expected demand.
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Celestial
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« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2021, 07:54:43 pm »



Or ... Penzance to London with a simple change at Exeter St Davids
[/quote]

But they are still nasty dmu's with underfloor engines, and so (as we're frequently told on this forum) not worthy accommodation for an inter-city style journey.
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broadgage
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« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2021, 09:28:27 pm »



Or ... Penzance to London with a simple change at Exeter St Davids

But they are still nasty dmu's with underfloor engines, and so (as we're frequently told on this forum) not worthy accommodation for an inter-city style journey.
[/quote]

Agreed, the 159s are a bit nasty, but at least have padded seats and are therefore not as nasty as IETs (Intercity Express Train). Neither is very suitable for long distance services.
SWT (South West Trains) have no catering. GWR (Great Western Railway) sometimes have a half hearted trolley but this is often hiding, or in the other unit, or completely absent.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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