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Author Topic: UK government's Transport decarbonisation plan  (Read 20162 times)
TonyK
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« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2021, 11:52:06 »

Roger Ford has covered this topic in his Informed Sources column for Modern Railways. Each month prior to publication he releases an ezezine email summarising the contents.

http://live.ezezine.com/ezine/archives/759/Informed%20Sources%20e-preview?p=1

Scanning the ezezine link should direct to the relevant edition of the magazine. May 2021 give a comparison using the body shell of DP2 and replacing power units by either batteries or fuel cells.

The ezezine gives an outline but the magazine article provides more details

Most informative. Mr Ford is also unequivocal in his conclusions, something you don't get from DfT» (Department for Transport - about).
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« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2021, 13:05:59 »



I am going to suggest that most UK (United Kingdom) Jo(e) Publics wants to keep moving around in the way that (s)he has done for the last fifty years, largely with private vehicles, but perhaps with fossil fuels replaced by electricity that comes from the magic "sustainable" tree that provides an endless supply at no cost to the environment. 

There is no "sustainable tree". There used to be, but Drax burnt it as biomass, to generate subsidies electricity.

In theory there could be if a plot of land is reserved for cultivating biomass and is only used at a sustainable rate while ensuring that soil is managed in a sustainable way and the carbon used in harvesting comes from renewable sources.  However in reality I suspect TonyK is right.
I'm not sure there could be a 'sustainable tree', even in theory. With anything that uses energy there are always 'losses'; not all the chemical energy in each lump of coal that Drax burnt made it into electrical energy in the power plant's output. Similarly, does the growth of a new tree capture all the carbon released by burning the previous tree, remembering that plants respire (releasing CO2) and don't just photosynthesize all the time? I don't fully understand this article about the Amazon rainforest now emitting more CO2 than it absorbs, but this quote from it does seem to support the view that biofuels can't be fully sustainable “The first very bad news is that forest burning produces around three times more CO2 than the forest absorbs."
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« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2021, 15:36:26 »

Note that those light green "ancillary electrification" lines are identified as requiring electrification, but given lower priority as no suitable method has been defined (yet).
In the case of Exeter to Plymouth/Penzance, it may well be that the sea wall section would make any scheme prohibitively expensive but the one that really seems to stand out is Worcester to Hereford.  Is there anything on this route which would make electrification difficult?
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broadgage
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« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2021, 17:39:27 »



There is no "sustainable tree". There used to be, but Drax burnt it as biomass, to generate subsidies electricity.

In theory there could be if a plot of land is reserved for cultivating biomass and is only used at a sustainable rate while ensuring that soil is managed in a sustainable way and the carbon used in harvesting comes from renewable sources.  However in reality I suspect TonyK is right.[/quote]I'm not sure there could be a 'sustainable tree', even in theory. With anything that uses energy there are always 'losses'; not all the chemical energy in each lump of coal that Drax burnt made it into electrical energy in the power plant's output. Similarly, does the growth of a new tree capture all the carbon released by burning the previous tree, remembering that plants respire (releasing CO2) and don't just photosynthesize all the time? I don't fully understand this article about the Amazon rainforest now emitting more CO2 than it absorbs, but this quote from it does seem to support the view that biofuels can't be fully sustainable “The first very bad news is that forest burning produces around three times more CO2 than the forest absorbs."
[/quote]

The burning of any individual tree can not release more carbon dioxide than was absorbed by the tree when growing, from where would this extra carbon dioxide come ?

When considering a forest rather than a tree, the position is more complex. Harvesting* small numbers of trees from a forest should be carbon neutral*, the new growth absorbs carbon roughly equivalent to that emitted by burning the harvested trees.

When however an area of mature forest is destroyed, then a lot more carbon is emitted. That is because a mature forest contains a lot of carbon "locked up" in dead and dying trees, leaf litter on the forest floor, and other vegetation. The destruction of the forest releases this locked up carbon almost overnight if the above materials are burnt. If allowed to rot and be eaten by insects then the same amount of carbon is released but a bit more slowly.

If a new forest is established in an area not previously forested, then extra carbon is absorbed from the air by the new tree growth. After a few decades to a few centuries, the new forest will stop absorbing any new carbon. Trees will be harvested by man, or allowed to die and decompose naturally, and this will release carbon similar to that absorbed by the growing of the new trees.

If trees are harvested not for fuel but for furniture manufacture or building, then the carbon is locked up, not forever but until the furniture or building is destroyed by fire, or decomposes naturally.
Wooden furniture lasts on average from 5 years to a hundred years, but when disposed of returns the carbon to the air.
Wood used for construction lasts on average from a hundred years up to several hundred years, and carbon in the construction timber returns to the air when the building burns down or is knocked down.

When wooden furniture or the timber parts of a building are no longer needed for the original purpose, they should be burnt as fuel when possible. This produces no more carbon than than burning on a bonfire or dumping in landfill. A home may be heated thereby, perhaps displacing oil, gas, or coal.

*Excluding fuel used by chainsaws, vehicles, timber mills etc.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2021, 17:47:34 »

…but the one that really seems to stand out is Worcester to Hereford.  Is there anything on this route which would make electrification difficult?

Ledbury tunnel might pose a significant challenge.  Colwall tunnel and Worcester Viaduct might also give some headaches.
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2021, 17:51:50 »



There is no "sustainable tree". There used to be, but Drax burnt it as biomass, to generate subsidies electricity.

In theory there could be if a plot of land is reserved for cultivating biomass and is only used at a sustainable rate while ensuring that soil is managed in a sustainable way and the carbon used in harvesting comes from renewable sources.  However in reality I suspect TonyK is right.
I'm not sure there could be a 'sustainable tree', even in theory. With anything that uses energy there are always 'losses'; not all the chemical energy in each lump of coal that Drax burnt made it into electrical energy in the power plant's output. Similarly, does the growth of a new tree capture all the carbon released by burning the previous tree, remembering that plants respire (releasing CO2) and don't just photosynthesize all the time? I don't fully understand this article about the Amazon rainforest now emitting more CO2 than it absorbs, but this quote from it does seem to support the view that biofuels can't be fully sustainable “The first very bad news is that forest burning produces around three times more CO2 than the forest absorbs."
[/quote]

The burning of any individual tree can not release more carbon dioxide than was absorbed by the tree when growing, from where would this extra carbon dioxide come ?
[/quote]
Presumably as the tree grows it also absorbs carbon, and lots of other elements, from the soil?
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broadgage
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« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2021, 18:30:45 »

A growing tree absorbs carbon dioxide from the air, not from the soil.
Other minerals are absorbed from the soil, and for this reason, ash from the burning of fire wood should be returned to the soil and not dumped at sea or into landfill.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2021, 20:14:13 »

The tree would not absorb carbon dioxide from the soil but might it absorb carbon, which would be released as carbon dioxide if the tree was burnt?
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broadgage
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« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2021, 21:26:24 »

The tree would not absorb carbon dioxide from the soil but might it absorb carbon, which would be released as carbon dioxide if the tree was burnt?

Not so far as I am aware.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
broadgage
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« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2021, 10:27:38 »

…but the one that really seems to stand out is Worcester to Hereford.  Is there anything on this route which would make electrification difficult?

Ledbury tunnel might pose a significant challenge.  Colwall tunnel and Worcester Viaduct might also give some headaches.

Not familiar with those places, but they sound like candidates for limited battery power to traverse short sections of the line that cant be affordably electrified.
ALL new electric trains should IMHO (in my humble opinion) have either a battery or a small diesel engine for when the wires come down, and limited use of same should be considered for short sections that cant be electrified affordably.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TonyK
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« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2021, 10:45:14 »


In theory there could be if a plot of land is reserved for cultivating biomass and is only used at a sustainable rate while ensuring that soil is managed in a sustainable way and the carbon used in harvesting comes from renewable sources.  However in reality I suspect TonyK is right.

The important part to note here is "in theory". The idea for biomass subsidies came from the theory, borne out by calculations on the back of a fag packet, that burning waste wood discharges CO2 into the atmosphere, but so long as we plant new trees that absorb, or sequester in pseudo-scientific greenspeak, that CO2, the proportion of atmospheric carbon dioxide will remain static. The UK (United Kingdom) produces about 2 million tonnes of wood products annually, so why not use the waste from that to replace coal in power stations? The lobbyists find that they are knocking on an open door, because government is keen to have anything that ticks boxes, so numbers are crunched and deals struck. To begin with, the power station uses "co-firing", ie burning wood along with the coal, but from 2016 starts to burn wood pellets alone. The strike price of £100 per MWh is agreed with the government, and the EU» (European Union - about) (remember that?) decides that is doesn't break any rules, although £92.50 per MWh for Hinkley C might still be an illegal state subsidy. Drax swings into action with gusto.

Fast forward a few years. The trimmings from the UK's wood industry don't fulfil the need. Drax burns 8 million tonnes of wood pellets annually. It has to source them from somewhere, and two thirds comes from the US. Some is waste from sawmills, some is "sustainably managed" forests which are chopped down, chopped up (I know, I didn't invent the English language) and stuck together before being shipped from Baton Rouge to the UK. This sounds a bit odd, even if it were all waste wood, but Drax (there are others, but Drax is the biggest) tells the world that this is a very good thing. You will find page after page of positive news about it if you search "Drax biomass" on google. It is only about three pages of search results later that pictures of destroyed ancient hardwood forests begin to show, and the energy used in making the pellets becomes apparent. The wood has to be dried, which is done using the bark as fuel, or it wouldn't burn well and could bring disease with it. It is energy intensive from start to finish, with the diesel used in the shipping being only a part of the story.

In short, a good theory is now being used for a bad purpose. We couldn't produce 8 million tonnes of wood here at home, and it can't be sourced from waste in the US and elsewhere. A lot of the wood comes from cutting down forests faster than they can grow, and yet again we are exporting our pollution problems. For this, Drax is being paid a healthy sum, expected to rise above £1 billion a year very soon - it was over £832 million last year.

Drax has a powerful voice in the lobbying trough, and a slick publicity operation producing lots of articles containing a high count of the words "sustainable" and "renewable". Read them critically, and you begin to notice a lot of missing detail. There are many voices being raised against this cosy setup, which is due to run to 2027 before coming up for renewal. Even the government seemed to be thinking that it was a rotten idea until the last general election. As a taster, look at this from a protest group. You have to dig a little to find proper details though - not many people look beyond page 2 of the search results in search engines, and Drax seems to have bought them.

The best place to hide a lie is in the open, disguised as truth. I reckon this one is the biggest lie ever sold.
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« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2021, 12:26:56 »

Leaving in the middle of nowhere I have no mains gas and rely on my log burner and oil deliveries. I also have a couple of acres of woodland and recently installed solar panels that will power the central heating. I'm fairly new to this and was hoping to become reasonably self-sufficient by using my own woodland for logs. Not sure it works entirely as even for a single household its quite a lot of wood to heat the whole house.

There's one acre of mature woodland and one of new growth. Based on limited data I suspect I'll need to cut down 5-6 mature trees a year for wood (using my electric chainsaw charged by the sun). As I'm growing the trees for wildlife and to look nice rather than logging its probably not sustainable as the new trees are too slow growing. The solar panels have a peak output of 6.5KW ( i think) which means on a clear winters day they should provide some central heating instead of relying on oil to heat the tank.

Which long explanation makes me wonder how 'green' biomass might be? I'd imagine the 'sustainably managed' forests are packed with fast growing wood and very little diversity or wildlife. Our neighbour has a biomass boiler and I was surprised how much wood pellet he gets through. It probably is more sustainable than oil but I can't help feel solar, nuclear, wind and tidal might score better.
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« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2021, 13:25:52 »

I quite agree Tony. Similar questions can be asked about biodiesel,  for which a large part of the 'waste oil' used in the UK (United Kingdom) is imported from the far East. Apart from the absurdity of transporting it all that way using marine diesel, if it were truly a waste product why isn't it used in the countries of origin,  where there are also diesel  vehicles? There are concerns that waste oil is being diverted from uses such as animal feed, and so driving up demand for virgin palm oil.

The ethanol being added to petrol is produced from things like sugar beet and corn,  so displacing food crops somewhere else, and using lots of diesel and fertiliser. But it is a nice subsidised  crop for European farmers,  so there is a lot of political support.
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broadgage
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« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2021, 15:53:01 »

I quite agree Tony. Similar questions can be asked about biodiesel,  for which a large part of the 'waste oil' used in the UK (United Kingdom) is imported from the far East. Apart from the absurdity of transporting it all that way using marine diesel, if it were truly a waste product why isn't it used in the countries of origin,  where there are also diesel  vehicles? There are concerns that waste oil is being diverted from uses such as animal feed, and so driving up demand for virgin palm oil.

The ethanol being added to petrol is produced from things like sugar beet and corn,  so displacing food crops somewhere else, and using lots of diesel and fertiliser. But it is a nice subsidised  crop for European farmers,  so there is a lot of political support.

I agree, biodiesel and bioethanol are produced largely from potential food crops, or by displacing the cultivation of food crops. As has been said, these "green" fuels also involve considerable diesel fuel in cultivation, processing, and transport.
Waste from agriculture can be a useful fuel, but would be better used in or near the place that produces them rather than transported halfway around the world.
Corn cobs for example if well dried make a good cooking fuel in places where the crop is grown.

The moderate use of locally grown fire wood is fine in my view. Trees do not live forever and cutting some for fire wood is fine.
What is not fine is clear cutting forests overseas to produce "green" biomass.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TonyK
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« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2021, 20:04:34 »

Closer to home, hundreds of fields are full of fast growing maize. Most will go straight to anaerobic digesters to make biogas so that some bus companies can say that they are using green fuel, while the food that could have been grown there is imported. I don't blame the farmers, who have mouths to feed.

Easy money drives perverse behaviours. The Renewable Heat Incentive in Northern Ireland was designed to get people to switch to renewable heat sources such as biomass (wood pellets again), heat pumps or solar. Good idea, you might think, but the problem was that the value of the incentive exceeded the cost of the energy. Soon, heaters were being installed in places that had never been heated previously, like car showrooms, barns and the like. Eventually, after a £500 million overspend, the government collapsed. You might also recall Hoover's offer in the early 1990s, to give two trans-Atlantic return air tickets to anyone spending over £100 on their products. The expectation was that sales of washing  machines would rise as people undecided about whether to replace the current model made their minds up. The reality was that people planning a trip to the states bought a £100 vacuum cleaner instead of an air ticket. Hoover's European arm ended up being sold to Candy.

So it is with anything else, and the renewable energy drive seems to attract more than its fair share.
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