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Author Topic: Fare rises for 2022  (Read 3506 times)
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2021, 04:46:02 pm »

Perhaps excise duties on road fuel and fares on the railway should be linked.

If rail fares are to be increased by say 4% then fuel duty should increase similarly.
Or put another way, if fuel duty is frozen, then rail fares should be.

If the price of apples rises by 4%, why don't we raise the price of pears by a similar amount?


Not comparable at all. Apples and pears are crops the prices of which vary due to fluctuations in harvests, and varying consumer demand. Prices are not set by the government but by supply versus demand.

Petrol prices are largely controlled by the government as they can adjust the rate of duty which is a significant proportion of the retail price.
Train fares are largely under government control.

I'd be interested to understand what you think that would achieve, other than disproportionately affecting poorer people and increasing the price of other goods, because you can be assure that the additional cost would be passed on. It would have virtually no impact on demand.

You might want to consider the price of crude oil, international exchange rates and other market forces and global events when it comes to the price of fuel, but apologies for the overhead shot.
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broadgage
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« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2021, 06:07:05 pm »

I would foresee two different possible outcomes from my suggested policy.

If road fuel duties were frozen, then rail fares would also be frozen and use encouraged.

If rail fares were increased then the duty on road fuel would be similarly increased, and consumption thereby decreased. I do not believe that demand for road fuel is inelastic. Higher prices do moderate demand. Despite the moaning about fuel prices, many drivers use fuel very wastefully, examples include.

Driving fast up to a red light and then braking hard, rather than coasting.
Exceeding the speed limit.
Making needless very short journeys rather than walking to the local shop.
Driving children to schools that are within walking distance.
Not thinking ahead and combining journeys.

In the case of replacement vehicles, then fuel consumption would be considered when looking for a new vehicle. Possibly even an electric vehicle.

In the case of delivery vehicles more attention would be given to full loads rather than several partly loaded vehicles. And of course more costly road fuel might reduce demand for freight, no more trucking vegetables hundreds of miles for packing, and then back again.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
ChrisB
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« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2021, 12:19:58 pm »

Generally speaking the Government uses RPI (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) when it comes to taking, and CPI when it comes to giving.

Until it comes to staff pay rises, which also are STILL based on RPI (usually +x%) - and staff costs are a big component of railway costs. It is no surprise that the Government still uses RPI%.

The recent Rail Improvement Plan document aims to sort this sort of anaomaly out & is likely to cause some friction amongst the unions. We'll see. but until the Government breaks the RPI% link on staff costs, there's no way they'll move away from RPI% on fare rises. IMHO (in my humble opinion)
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Rhydgaled
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« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2021, 08:21:53 pm »

I'd be interested to understand what you think that would achieve, other than disproportionately affecting poorer people and increasing the price of other goods, because you can be assure that the additional cost would be passed on. It would have virtually no impact on demand.
Increasing the cost of road fuel might have no impact on demand for travel, but if the additional fuel duty revenue was used to increase subsidies for bus services (running more frequent services and/or reducing bus fares (I forget whether bus operators have to pay fuel duty)) a larger portion of that demand could be satisfied by bus rather than car travel? I suggest increasing bus subsidy rather than rail because the rail network doesn't reach everywhere so, while cheaper rail fares would lesson the impact on poorer people in some areas, in areas without a rail service poorer people would be disadvantaged if the additional subsidy was targeted at rail.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
mjones
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« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2021, 10:10:44 pm »

.


Demand for fuel is virtually inelastic and price has very little effect on it.


In the longer term the price of fuel makes a big difference to the types of cars people buy, which is why cars in the USA have historically been much less efficient than those in Europe. And fuel price does affect demand- DfT» (Department for Transport - about)'s traffic growth forecasts take the cost of driving into account and are higher than they would have been had fuel duty not been frozen.
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grahame
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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2021, 05:01:29 am »

Campaign for Better Transport call for a fares freeze ...

Quote
Fair fares?

The effects of climate change are being felt around the world. Earlier this month, the UN chief warned of a "code red for humanity". And with the UK (United Kingdom) hosting the UN Climate Change Conference this year, it's even more important that our country reduce its carbon emissions.

So it makes no sense that people travelling by green public transport must pay increasing fares while fuel duty for drivers has been frozen for a decade and the Government is considering cutting air passenger duty.

Last week the Government deferred a decision on whether rail fares should increase. We think fares should be frozen for next year, followed by a full review: we need to rebalance pricing in favour of greener modes.

Over the past week, we've been making this case on the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page), in the Daily Express, the Guardian, the Telegraph and The Times, and supporters of public transport have helped us to spread the message on social media. If you use Twitter or Facebook please follow us, join the conversation and share our posts with your friends.

Raising fares would hinder vital efforts to bring down transport's carbon emissions, and worsen air pollution and traffic-clogged streets. Together let's call for a #FaresFreeze.
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broadgage
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« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2021, 11:23:34 am »

It is reported that petrol and diesel prices are approaching the prices that prevailed about 10 years ago, with much complaining from the motoring lobby.
I would say, lucky motorists who despite 10 years of inflation are still paying about the same price as 10 years ago, and have indeed benefitted greatly from much reduced prices in the intervening years.

And by how much have train fares increased in the same 10 years ? Very substantially indeed in most cases, and often for services considered to be getting worse.

Cheaper road fuel and ever increasing rail fares are not going to encourage greener transport choices.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 11:33:18 am by broadgage » Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Mark A
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« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2021, 01:49:11 pm »

Rail fare rise announcement postponed:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/01/ministers-postponed-announcement-of-rail-fares-increase-leak-confirms
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