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Author Topic: South Western Railways Waterloo - Bristol services axed  (Read 23163 times)
grahame
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« Reply #120 on: September 10, 2021, 08:58:59 pm »

Aren’t services from SAL to Waterloo to continue? I’m not sure what you are suggesting?


Pre-Covid there were two trains an hour from Salisbury to London - o being the train from Exeter which called at Andover, Basingstoke and some stations to London,  The second train started as Salisbury, or a bit further down the line, called at the three extra stations on its way to Basingstoke and then onward to London. 

From December (and I think it is at the moment) the second "slow" train terminates at Basingstoke outside the "rush hour" - and the connection from there is likely to the the Exeter train anyway.  So - yes - SAL to WAT is down to hourly during the day.

Here are the timetables for Grateley, to illustrate what this is doing to THEIR London service!



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Mark A
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« Reply #121 on: September 11, 2021, 01:57:09 pm »

I've used these services twice in the last week, booking via the app, and as a recent customer, SWR» (South Western Railway - about) happened to send me a feedback survey. The survey asked for origin / destination pairs, and it's the case that in their customer survey, stations west of Salisbury on the Bristol line have been removed from the list.

(Also, it's slightly telling that SWR didn't provide open fields for people to supply origin / destinations outwith their network - if I was a TOC (Train Operating Company) I'd be with child to know information of that sort, does this perhaps rather show that TOCs tend to think only of their own network, rather than be 'Real world travel' focussed...)
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Mark A
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« Reply #122 on: September 11, 2021, 02:01:14 pm »

I see that this Saturday, the service is bustituted, and Sunday it is double bustituted.   
Remember it well along with the biannual timetables showing when engineering work was taking place.

I just look at the Saturday one ... Waterloo to Trowbridge.   No slower that the train with a connection at Salisbury. Waterloo to Andover, 10 minutes to connect onto the bus to Salisbury, from where there is a 10 minute connection onto the train to Trowbridge!

Mwuhuhuhuhuh:

(From the SWR» (South Western Railway - about) web site, late alteration)

"What's going on
This weekend, journeys via rail replacement bus are subject to short notice cancelation and change. If rail replacement buses are not available, customers may choose to order a station to station taxi and claim the cost back from our Customer Services team"
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Mark A
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« Reply #123 on: September 12, 2021, 10:55:14 am »

A further response from the Secretary of State via my MP (Member of Parliament). Usefully he acknowledges that the Bristol to Waterloo through service is well used and valuable. He now needs to acknowledge that his department's poor decision to cease it a year in advance of timetable changes to provide connecting trains should not stand. Changes to the remaining through Bristol trains the December 22 timetable change (and the morning service up to Waterloo should be reinstated).

I'll also be asking my mp when she was informed of this and the nature of the communication - was it in a form that made clear the impact of this change.

It would be good to have the same insight from Transport Focus, as this issue seems to have slipped past them.

The core of the SoSfT's reponse:

MPs and Stakeholders were informed directly about the withdrawal of the Bristol services to London Waterloo in advance of the SWR» (South Western Railway - about) December 2022 timetable consultation at the end of July. Key stakeholders, including Transport Focus, MPs and other elected representatives,passenger and accessibility groups,and business and transport sectors,will be consulted by SWR as part of the December 2022 timetable consultation.

I do not dispute that the Bristol trains are busy at certain times, and while I acknowledge the attractiveness of the through service to Waterloo to passengers like Mr ........., there are increasing capacity issues elsewhere on the West of England line, especially beyond Salisbury, as leisure demand grows.

Consequently, the industry is looking to ensure that we maximise the use of the SWR diesel fleet on the core Exeter route,to ensure that customers can have a comfortable journey.

The December 2022 timetable consultation process will allow SWR and Great Western Railway (GWR (Great Western Railway)) to consider how to provide attractive connections at Salisbury, whilst recognising the constraints of operating a reliable railway through many complex junctions on both routes, and the single line sections west of Salisbury.
 
The proposals have been discussed with GWR from the beginning and they are taking this into account in their rolling stock planning. Many of their services have been lengthened with the introduction of the class 165/166 units to the Cardiff-Portsmouth route.

The congestion concerns are not specifically about the trains arriving at Waterloo; these are extensions of other services, as Mr ........ points out. Virtually all these services split or join at Salisbury, with portions for Bristol and Exeter, which I acknowledge is an important connection.

Consequently, any delays between Bristol and Salisbury will negatively impact on the performance of the Exeter to Waterloo services. Currently Westbury is another significant pinch point in the network which the proposed new timetable also seeks to address.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 08:14:48 am by Mark A » Logged
ChrisB
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« Reply #124 on: September 12, 2021, 01:40:17 pm »

The question begging to be answered now amongst others os ‘did your MP (Member of Parliament) recognise the likely concern when first advised by the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) back in July and if so, what did they actively do about it back then, if anything? And if this wasn’t recognised, do you think you know your constituents well enough?
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Mark A
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« Reply #125 on: September 13, 2021, 08:18:19 am »

The question begging to be answered now amongst others os ‘did your MP (Member of Parliament) recognise the likely concern when first advised by the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) back in July and if so, what did they actively do about it back then, if anything? And if this wasn’t recognised, do you think you know your constituents well enough?

I'll ask for a copy of the information received. I suspect it will not have been to the effect "We're withdrawing all services between Bristol and London Waterloo".
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 12:24:41 pm by Mark A » Logged
grahame
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« Reply #126 on: September 14, 2021, 09:27:04 am »

Quote
MPs (Member of Parliament) and Stakeholders were informed directly about the withdrawal of the Bristol services to London Waterloo in advance of the SWR» (South Western Railway - about) December 2022 timetable consultation at the end of July.

"Stakeholders" is a usefully woolly term. I have been in touch with four user groups - all very well known indeed in the area - and none of them was informed directly; they found out from other sources such as people pointing out the sentence in the 2022 consultation that informed the reader that "The Bristols " were being pulled at the end of 2021.  Checking with fellow team members at TravelWatch SouthWest, we learned from industry sources and didn't hear officially as a stakeholder either. Finally, at the same time I asked my contact in my local CRP (Community Rail Partnership) (who are now the lead CRP at Trowbridge and Westbury) and have not [yet?] heard back.

I would guess (and anyone who knows my guess is wrong, please let me know) that Transport Focus was informed as the passenger representative body, and local transport authorities (LTAs (Local Transport Authority)) (such as Wiltshire Council) were informed too. We have evidence from down the route that some elected local councillors were informed by their LTA; how prevelant that was, I don't know.

Overall impression - announced far more quietly than such a thing should have been, suggesting that someone might have wanted to keep it quiet ...
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ChrisB
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« Reply #127 on: September 14, 2021, 09:44:32 am »

I agree with your theory above about who was likely to have been referred to as ‘stakeholders’….plus possibly the SRTBs (Sub-Regional Transport Boards). I’m hearing that these are the redefined stakeholders and other interested bodies need to strike up relationships with those recognised bodies.

Of course, these bodies won’t have yet set up channels to work with ‘us’ & it’ll take a while. Railfuture was a consultee on SWT (South West Trains) 2022 timetable, so I’m hoping that they continue to be considered a ‘stakeholder’ on a wider basis & RUGs» (Rail User Group - about) may want to affiliate as a way of providing input.

@Grahame - I understand third-hand that GWR (Great Western Railway) have held their local-to-you latest timetable get-together via zoom. Did you attend? Do you onow anyone that did? If so, did you get a hand-out from GWR? I hear (again, third hand) that they are also proposing some cuts on the same route, but need confirmation. I might be able to ask/get a confirmation when we get the Thames Valley version later this week, but it’s a tad off-topic for Thames Valley & it might get ruled offside….
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grahame
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« Reply #128 on: September 14, 2021, 10:15:00 am »

I agree with your theory above about who was likely to have been referred to as ‘stakeholders’….plus possibly the SRTBs (Sub-Regional Transport Boards). I’m hearing that these are the redefined stakeholders and other interested bodies need to strike up relationships with those recognised bodies.

Of course, these bodies won’t have yet set up channels to work with ‘us’ & it’ll take a while. Railfuture was a consultee on SWT (South West Trains) 2022 timetable, so I’m hoping that they continue to be considered a ‘stakeholder’ on a wider basis & RUGs» (Rail User Group - about) may want to affiliate as a way of providing input.

Railfuture was not one of the user groups I checked with, though at least one of the organisations I approached are an associate member and have several people on their local committee. I will ask ...

Quote
@Grahame - I understand third-hand that GWR (Great Western Railway) have held their local-to-you latest timetable get-together via zoom. Did you attend? Do you onow anyone that did? If so, did you get a hand-out from GWR? I hear (again, third hand) that they are also proposing some cuts on the same route, but need confirmation. I might be able to ask/get a confirmation when we get the Thames Valley version later this week, but it’s a tad off-topic for Thames Valley & it might get ruled offside….

Yes, yes, yes though marked "confidential".  There's a wide spread of people who will have seen it.

We were told that the 11:11 and 19:37 Westbury to Southampton Central are to be "withdrawn south of Warminster" and the return trains for Southampton at 12:27 and 21:22 suffer the same fate.  An early look at Real Time Trains for mid December suggest that the 11:11 goes completely (with a call in the opposite direction being timetabled at Dilton Marsh to compensate for the loss) and there seem to be a number of extra ECS (Empty Coaching Stock) runs between Westbury and Warminster. 

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ChrisB
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« Reply #129 on: September 14, 2021, 10:41:25 am »

So nothing being removed from Salisbury / Trowbridge / Bristol?

Railfure’s full response to this consultation is here
https://www.railfuture.org.uk/display2771
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grahame
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« Reply #130 on: September 14, 2021, 10:48:48 am »

So nothing being removed from Salisbury / Trowbridge / Bristol?

Railfure’s full response to this consultation is here
https://www.railfuture.org.uk/display2771

Services are being removed from the first part of that route by GWR (Great Western Railway) (Salisbury to Warminster/Westbury) and the whole of that route by SWR» (South Western Railway - about) (services from Salisbury that currently run north from Westbury are being withdrawn over that complete route).
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grahame
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« Reply #131 on: September 14, 2021, 10:57:34 am »

Railfure’s full response to this consultation is here
https://www.railfuture.org.uk/display2771

A very full response covering the whole of the SWR» (South Western Railway - about) area for December 2022.
Quote
We note firstly that you propose to withdraw this service from December 2021
suggests to me that this Railfuture branch (it's the submission from Wessex branch) hadn't heard a s stakeholder either, and was taking the only opportunity involved (next year's consultation) to express its concern at the changes being imposed this year without (apparetently) proper passenger group consultation.
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Mark A
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« Reply #132 on: September 14, 2021, 02:36:18 pm »

Thanks for the further insights. Really hope that any person or organisation in the role of representing passengers, when this service is referred to as 'Salisbury to Bristol', will correct the speaker 'London Waterloo, intermediate stations and Bristol'.
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bradshaw
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« Reply #133 on: September 14, 2021, 04:23:46 pm »


SALISBURY TO EXETER RAIL USERS GROUP - (SERUG).

reply regarding SWT (South West Trains) TT changes - the full reply under news or via Google drive

Quote
6.8 P35 Waterloo – Salisbury. We assume this service is based on the xx 50 from Waterloo (currently starting at Basingstoke) and it is not shown how the extended services to Yeovil Junction via Sherborne will work. Again, Clapham Junction and Woking stops should be as now.
6.9 We need to see a detailed analysis of the justification for the removal of the off peak extension of the Waterloo - Salisbury service to Gillingham/Yeovil Junction, as your own document shows that off peak travel may well exceed pre covid levels. We do not accept the performance argument, as this route has historically delivered good performance on the existing infrastructure.
6.10 P36 Salisbury to Yeovil via Westbury. these trains are very lightly loaded, and there must be other operational reasons for keeping them in the Timetable – e.g. driver route knowledge etc. These cannot be described as a “core service”. The service is also unbalanced service (i.e. 6 up trains a day from Yeovil and 3 down trains) which is likely to deter regular users.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1neNXqT6Y_994g1-GmY9EkLhmZkzNUIYF/view
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grahame
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« Reply #134 on: September 14, 2021, 06:22:41 pm »


SALISBURY TO EXETER RAIL USERS GROUP - (SERUG).

reply regarding SWT (South West Trains) TT changes - the full reply under news or via Google drive

Quote
[snip]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1neNXqT6Y_994g1-GmY9EkLhmZkzNUIYF/view

Of particular reference to this thread I notice:

Quote
6.13 SWR» (South Western Railway - about) Salisbury to Bristol. SERUG are against these being removed. Whilst, there is clearly a faster direct
route from London (Paddington) to Bristol, there is passenger demand for through services from Clapham
Junction, Woking and Basingstoke. This results in Bradford-on-Avon, Trowbridge and Warminster losing a direct
London service. Again, much of this is Leisure orientated – and such travellers may decide to use the car if a
change of train is required at Salisbury.


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