Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
End of through trains
Bristol to Waterloo?

 
Please sign our petition
(more information)
 
Campaign links here
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 01:35 27 Nov 2021
- Storm Arwen: Man dies as gale-force winds hit UK
- The African countries on the red list - and other UK travel rules
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 03/12/21 - TWSW AGM - online
09/12/21 - Award Event - CRN
19/01/22 - MTUG - regular meeting
08/03/22 - WWRUG AGM - B-o-A
Random Image
Train RunningNo cancellations or delays
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
November 27, 2021, 01:52:22 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[116] XC short notice alterations due to driver unavailability.
[86] Are the railways fit for their (future) purpose?
[56] Okehampton
[44] Portishead Line reopening for passengers - ongoing discussion
[36] Threats to bus and tube serviced in London.
[28] New station at Ruscombe??!! "Twyford Gardens"
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Electricity price rise threatens rail freight?  (Read 947 times)
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3665


View Profile
« on: October 12, 2021, 08:47:44 pm »

The RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) are warning:
Quote
RMT Press Office:

RMT warns that electricity price hike threatens to destroy rail freight and jack up dirty diesel use.

RAIL UNION RMT warned today that a 200% increase from Network Rail on electricity charges to rail freight operators risks wrecking the industry while jacking up the use of diesel on both rail and road – making a nonsense of the Government's CO2 targets.

General Secretary Mick Lynch said:

“As COP26 approaches the Government have to step in to stop this carnage on our railways.

“With the road haulage industry already in turmoil, and with the threat of empty shelves this Christmas, we should be encouraging the use of rail freight not battering it into submission with electricity charges that will add millions of pounds to rail freight companies’ bills, with one operator reporting an £8M increase in costs.

“It's a nonsense that it will be far cheaper to run dirty, polluting diesel units rather than the clean electric alternative. The government cannot wash their hands of this and must step in to support the green rail option before it’s too late.
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/electricity-price-hike-threatens-rail-freight/

I'm not sure why freight in particular?
Logged

Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5932


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2021, 11:39:31 pm »

The RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) words refer to "electricity charges to rail freight operators", saying they will suddenly be tripled, which does stretch one's credulity a bit. This rate was set for 2021/22 by this letter sent out in March 2021.

Anyway, if you read down in the letter it says the rate for electricity used is 9.991p/kWh. various distribution costs and additional charges are added to that, but not as a fixed rate. For charter operators these are fixed at the system-wide average, and add  2.434p to give 12.425p/kWh.

So what is going on? Given the upheavals in energy prices (notably for gas) one might expect an emergency increase, though not of that size. But the wording of the letter does appear to rule that out - the price is "locked" by NR» (Network Rail - home page)'s supplier. So has that supplier had gone bust? Anyone heard anything? I have read the supplier is EDF, claiming NR is only given nuclear power, so it's obviously not literal bankruptcy here.
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4477



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2021, 11:50:22 am »

I expect that the wholesale cost of electricity will about double, due largely to the increased gas price.
However diesel fuel is also increasing in price, only modestly so far, but I expect further increases.

I suspect that electricity meters will soon become a network rail requirement for new or refurbished electric locomotives and multiple units.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3641


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2021, 11:53:58 am »

Network Rail has a contracted tariff with its electricity supplier, certainly in the SE most of the electricity used is derived from renewable or France
Logged

Neither a wise man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the train of the future to run over him.     
Dwight D. Eisenhower
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 6062


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2021, 12:11:20 pm »

Network Rail has a contracted tariff with its electricity supplier, certainly in the SE most of the electricity used is derived from renewable or France

Blimey if it's from France it'll probably be cut off soon judging by the way Macron is foaming at the mouth!  Cheesy
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5932


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2021, 12:36:29 pm »

I suspect that electricity meters will soon become a network rail requirement for new or refurbished electric locomotives and multiple units.

Network rail have operated a metered traction power service for ten years. There is a standard metering data interface, and users are charged for power consumed plus an addition for distribution costs and losses. The alternative is for power consumption to be worked out based on simulations, using the same distance and load data as for variable track charges.

I can't find any data on how much traction power is metered, but I expect the simulated rates will be set a little high, which will encourage its use.
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5932


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2021, 12:42:45 pm »

There are now some comments on Twitter from the usual suspects confirming that the EC4T rates have been suddenly increased - but no more detail yet.
Logged
bradshaw
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1077



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2021, 02:20:17 pm »

Freightliner to withdraw ALL electric traction due to increased rates

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2021/10/13/freightliner-to-withdraw-entire-electric-fleet
Also more on Twitter
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5932


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2021, 02:41:41 pm »

Freightliner to withdraw ALL electric traction due to increased rates

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2021/10/13/freightliner-to-withdraw-entire-electric-fleet
Also more on Twitter

That refers to "a steep rise in wholesale electricity prices of more than 200% between September and October". So this is not the "locked tariff" notified in the NR» (Network Rail - home page) letter I linked to yesterday. Here is a paragraph from that NR letter:
Quote
Under the terms of Network Rail’s contract with its electricity supplier, train operators that expect to use more than 450,000 kWh in a railway year are able to lock the energy commodity tariff for their forecast amount of consumption, if they wish. If they do not wish to lock their own prices then the default rate will be the month ahead rate and will be locked by Network Rail a few days before the start of each calendar month.

In other words, these are operators that have chosen to pay the spot market rate for their electricity. No doubt in "normal" times this is cheaper than a rate locked for a year or so, but that saving comes with risks. And now there is a flock of chickens heading roostwards.
Logged
eightonedee
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1133



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2021, 02:42:38 pm »

Over to Grant Shapps to explain this in the context of the Government's green agenda.....
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4477



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2021, 03:54:27 pm »

Freightliner to withdraw ALL electric traction due to increased rates

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2021/10/13/freightliner-to-withdraw-entire-electric-fleet
Also more on Twitter

This I find shocking, and rather surprising.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 6062


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2021, 04:05:40 pm »

Freightliner to withdraw ALL electric traction due to increased rates

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2021/10/13/freightliner-to-withdraw-entire-electric-fleet
Also more on Twitter

This I find shocking, and rather surprising.

What would you suggest they do as an alternative?
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4477



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2021, 05:36:46 pm »

Freightliner to withdraw ALL electric traction due to increased rates

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2021/10/13/freightliner-to-withdraw-entire-electric-fleet
Also more on Twitter

This I find shocking, and rather surprising.

What would you suggest they do as an alternative?

If I was in charge, I would have considered carrying on with electric traction, and advertising this.

"Look at our commitment to the environment, we are using green electricity, despite dirty diesel being cheaper"

Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4477



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2021, 06:09:50 pm »

Despite the increase in electricity costs, I find it very surprising the diesel power is cheaper.

Electricity for railway traction is reportedly charged at about 12.5 pence a unit.

Red diesel is currently available at about 75 pence a liter, in bulk, delivered.
Diesel fuel consumption of a diesel generator is about 200 liters per MWH. Or about 5 kwh per liter.

That is 15 pence a kwh from diesel fuel, presuming good efficiency, a more pessimistic estimate might be 20 pence a unit for electricity from diesel.
Cant find relevant figure for diesel locomotives, but the figures for diesel generators should be comparable since the engines are of similar size, worked under somewhat similar conditions, and all modern locomotives use electric transmission.

12.5 pence a unit is still less than 15 or 20 pence a unit.

Electric locomotives should also save on maintenance, though this is harder to quantify.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5932


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2021, 06:21:37 pm »

That is 15 pence a kwh from diesel fuel, presuming good efficiency, a more pessimistic estimate might be 20 pence a unit for electricity from diesel.
Cant find relevant figure for diesel locomotives, but the figures for diesel generators should be comparable since the engines are of similar size, worked under somewhat similar conditions, and all modern locomotives use electric transmission.

12.5 pence a unit is still less than 15 or 20 pence a unit.

That price was the year's "locked" rate. Presumably the spot market rate six months ago was a bit below that. The quotes suggest that market rate has tripled.

A quick poke at Google comes up with this graph, showing daily market rates in £/GWh (divide by 10 for p/kWh). These FOCs (Freight Operating Company) are being charged via NR» (Network Rail - home page) at a rate fixed monthly for a month, which presumably has been behaving a bit less overexcitedly than the daily one.


There are further data, e.g. on just wind-powered electricity, on the same site.
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page