High fares - a deterrent to higher passenger numbers

[whole diary]

[grahame]

from Christian Wolmar

Sir, Clare Foges is right to highlight how trains could make a far bigger contribution to the net zero target but she could have given more emphasis to how high fares act as an enormous deterrent (“Trains are key to getting net zero on track”, Nov 1). The focus should be on leisure travellers (not the commuters who have decided on a life of self-imprisonment at home), and they are extremely price-sensitive. .... [continues]

He's right and it's being oft said apart (it seems) by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) ... and, yes, CW^▸ (Christian Wolmar (rail journalist)) has said it before too.   He goes on to say how headline fares, even if very few people actually but the anytime open returns for intercity travel, provided a marketing own goal.

[CyclingSid]

And as has been discussed here, ticket machines don't always make it easy to get the cheap(est) fares.

[broadgage]

There is a generally held view that rail travel not only very expensive but also exceedingly complex.
The fare payable is often regarded as being down to luck rather than being determined by any logical process.

I have long held the view that rail fares should be greatly simplified with only three different fares payable for a journey, only two fares for a local journey.

I see no merit in charging punitively high fares for last minute walk-up use of a lightly loaded train. Nor in offering discounted advance tickets for a service known to be overcrowded.

If HMG are serious about climate change, then rail needs to be simpler, and on all but very busy trains, cheaper.

Whereas actual policies to date have been to make air and road transport cheaper whilst rail fares rise every year and also tend to become more complex.

[plymothian]

HMG want rail - like all business - to pay for itself, high fares help this, balanced by trimming expenditure through destaffing etc.
The British do not do social services - run just for social benefit by the nation, they're always somehow run as/by private businesses.

[TaplowGreen]

HMG want rail - like all business - to pay for itself, high fares help this, balanced by trimming expenditure through destaffing etc.
The British do not do social services - run just for social benefit by the nation, they're always somehow run as/by private businesses.

Blimey, someone had better tell the NHS, quick!

[njt]

In a couple of weeks I need to travel to Plymouth for 1000 and have been looking at the rail options.  The train that beat suits my needs leaves St Austell at 0844, one minute before Devon and Cornwall Railcard becomes valid.  Looked at splits and can split at Lostwithiel and get D&C railcard discount on an off peak return on the same train and pay peak return to Lostwithiel. This only appear possible  Lostwithiel has a different validity code (W4) on off peak to other stations (W2) making the off peak available earlier.

How many passengers simply pay (or don’t) the £19.20 anytime day return instead of the £11.75 option with a D&C Railcard and split at Lostwithiel?

[broadgage]

HMG want rail - like all business - to pay for itself, high fares help this, balanced by trimming expenditure through destaffing etc.
The British do not do social services - run just for social benefit by the nation, they're always somehow run as/by private businesses.

What about regional airports then ? Subsidising them seems to be regarded as a good thing in order to encourage more flying improve regional connectivity.

[Bmblbzzz]

In a couple of weeks I need to travel to Plymouth for 1000 and have been looking at the rail options.  The train that beat suits my needs leaves St Austell at 0844, one minute before Devon and Cornwall Railcard becomes valid.  Looked at splits and can split at Lostwithiel and get D&C railcard discount on an off peak return on the same train and pay peak return to Lostwithiel. This only appear possible  Lostwithiel has a different validity code (W4) on off peak to other stations (W2) making the off peak available earlier.

How many passengers simply pay (or don’t) the £19.20 anytime day return instead of the £11.75 option with a D&C Railcard and split at Lostwithiel?

That you can save over a third of the price by knowing such things is an example of how geeky rail fares have become. It's sometimes said that railways have followed the discount airline model of pricing, with cheaper tickets if you book ahead – but if airlines followed the railway model, you would need to know the ICAO code, choose the flight which takes a particular path and flight level, and check in from one specified counter. Ryanair and their ilk are rightfully criticised for some of their pricing policies but mostly they seem to be based on material factors: are you travelling at a popular time, from/to a popular airport, are you taking luggage which requires extra handling, do you expect a meal and entertainment included in the ticket price? To get a cheaper air ticket requires accepting some sacrifices in comfort and convenience, but no specialist knowledge.

[IndustryInsider]

Not many flights make stops en-route, which is where many of the fares anomalies for the railways occur, with zonal railcards and time restrictions adding an extra layer of potential problems. 

It would be very hard to remove many anomalies without making shorter journeys more expensive or longer journeys cheaper - both of which have their drawbacks.

[Jamsdad]

It might be worth learning from SNCF^▸ (Societe Nationale des Chemins de fer Francais - French National Railways), they are slashing off peak ticket prices, and have a simple online fare offer that just gives you an advance or  a walk- up price. Very high fares for peak  TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) trains, lower for off peak, and strong subsidies from regional government for local trains. Its not rocket science!

[broadgage]

It might be worth learning from SNCF^▸ (Societe Nationale des Chemins de fer Francais - French National Railways), they are slashing off peak ticket prices, and have a simple online fare offer that just gives you an advance or  a walk- up price. Very high fares for peak  TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) trains, lower for off peak, and strong subsidies from regional government for local trains. Its not rocket science!

I see considerable merit in this simpler structure, but I have never seen the point in reduced fares for advanced bookings, whether in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) or in France.

Higher fares for busy or peak trains makes sense, providing extra capacity is expensive and those who travel at peak times should contribute to the cost of extra stock and other capacity enhancements.

But for what logical reason should travel on a known busy train be cheaper if booked 20 days in advance, rather than 20 minutes before departure ?

And likewise, for what logical reason is last minute travel on a lightly loaded train so expensive ?

[grahame]

... for what logical reason is last minute travel on a lightly loaded train so expensive ?

[advocate mode=devil]Desparate or unprepared people will pay desperate sums?  Look not at what it costs to provide the service but the elestacity of passenger numbers versus the price charged.  For example, I have a train with 150 seats on it, 50 of which have been sold 3 or more days ahead.   I then have 100 seats which I can sell on the day.   If I charge £10 each, 70 people will buy them and I get £700 of income. But if I charge £30 each and 40 people still need to travel, I gain £1200 pounds of income.  I like that for my business, and it means that not only do I get more income, but also I have 60 more seats to sell and grow my market as opposed to just 30 seats.   Only when I start charging £60 pound each and find I have just 10 customers on the day have I broken the model - but that's still £600 of income which is not far down on the £700, and I probably have less cleaning to do from the quieter train ... less free snacks to serve if I offer them ... less chance of being too busy to collect all the fares ... hey, less of them pesky customers![/advocate] 

[Red Squirrel]

HMG want rail - like all business - to pay for itself, high fares help this, balanced by trimming expenditure through destaffing etc.
The British do not do social services - run just for social benefit by the nation, they're always somehow run as/by private businesses.

That's not quite true though really, is it? Beeching set out to make the railway pay for itself, but it was quickly determined that London would have to be a special case. This concept of the 'social railway' later evolved to cover some areas outside London, though not before much of the country had lost its service.

And the railway has been nationalised in all but name since 1948, run in large part for the social benefit of the nation.

[JayMac]

The British do not do social services - run just for social benefit by the nation, they're always somehow run as/by private businesses.

Roads, schools, hospitals, emergency services, justice, defence, environmental protection, planning, housing, food standards, waste management, welfare benefits, national and local parks, research and innovation funding, health & safety, consumer protection, competition regulation, arts & culture...

Apart from those, what has government ever done for us?

[Robin Summerhill]

... for what logical reason is last minute travel on a lightly loaded train so expensive ?

[advocate mode=devil]Desparate or unprepared people will pay desperate sums?  Look not at what it costs to provide the service but the elestacity of passenger numbers versus the price charged.  For example, I have a train with 150 seats on it, 50 of which have been sold 3 or more days ahead.   I then have 100 seats which I can sell on the day.   If I charge £10 each, 70 people will buy them and I get £700 of income. But if I charge £30 each and 40 people still need to travel, I gain £1200 pounds of income.  I like that for my business, and it means that not only do I get more income, but also I have 60 more seats to sell and grow my market as opposed to just 30 seats.   Only when I start charging £60 pound each and find I have just 10 customers on the day have I broken the model - but that's still £600 of income which is not far down on the £700, and I probably have less cleaning to do from the quieter train ... less free snacks to serve if I offer them ... less chance of being too busy to collect all the fares ... hey, less of them pesky customers![/advocate] 

There is charging what the market will bear (a business practice that most companies indulge in) but there is also the risk of putting potential customers off because they get the wrong impression. Take the walk-up return fares Bath to Paddington as an example:

Anytime return £214.20
Off peak £86.80
Super off peak £63.00

If and when the media talk about the cost of rail travel between Bath and London, which one do they quote? You know as well as I do, and it ain’t £86.80 or £63.00...

This won’t off people like me who just get irritated every time I hear it. It probably wouldn’t put off many regular rail passengers who know they can get a better deal than that quoted either by tailoring their travel times or splitting or both.

But for the leisure traveller who never uses trains and wants to take the family for a nice day trip to London?

“Good God Mavis, the train fare to London is over £1.00 a mile for each of us and over half that for the kids. I’ll go and out some petrol in the car...”

And of course they also know that all trains are always late if they run at all because the media tells them that too.