Here we go again - can we overcome this sort of issue?

[whole diary]

[PhilWakely]

A few years ago, before GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s big revamp of the timetable to/from the South West, two Paddington-bound services were more than likely to be platformed at Newton Abbot at the same time at around 7.30am  -  a Penzance to Paddington, timetabled to depart at 0731 and a Paignton to Paddington timetabled to depart at 0729. The 0729 was an Off-Peak, (almost-)all stations service, whilst the 0731 a Peak 'fast' service, which overtook the stopper at Exeter. A recall many a passenger with an Advance ticket for the 0729 boarding the 0731! 

Thankfully, now, the Paignton to Paddington has been replaced by a slightly earlier Plymouth to Paddington departing some 10 minutes earlier.

Whilst talking Advance tickets, I am shocked at the number of pax lured into buying an Advance ticket that is literally just a few pence cheaper than the more flexible walk-up ticket.

[UstiImmigrunt]

As one of the dying breed that is lucky enough not to pay to travel or get a 75% reduction I feel complete sorry for those who do have to work out the cheapest way to complete a train journey. And even more sympathy for those whose job it is to carry out ticket checks and trying to tell the difference between those who have made a genuine mistake which in my experience is around 35% and those who know exactly what they are doing and have every intention of....

Buying a rail card ticket without the correct rail card.
Wrong number of passengers on a groupsave ticket.
And the regular abuse, advance purchase tickets then travel on the train the passenger wants to be on.

And the worse passengers are those who know they are in the wrong but abuse the person doing the ticket checking whether face to face or on social media.

And this could affect the ticket checkers. A person may be more towards sympathy then gets verbally assaulted or is given a telling off by a guards manager and becomes hard skinned then goes towards full fare single irrespective of the circumstances.

Thankfully quite a lot of passengers pay when caught and is it a geniue mistake and therefore pay the excess or a deliberate attempt to fare dodge and therefore full fare single on top of what has been previously paid? Again a minefield. If the excess is paid there's normally a warning which the deliberate fare dodger will ignore, try it on and if I loose out I'm paying the correct fare. But then the next ticket checker goes straight to full fare single and along comes the abuse because the fare dodger doesn't want to pay over the original price.

Something I remind the staff, the process on buying a ticket requires a box to be ticked stating the terms and conditions have been met BEFORE card details are entered.

Dear Passenger,

This ticket is for the 2332 to Bristol. You are on the 1732 'ow much peak time train.

Pull this stunt at an airport.

I believe ticket simplication has been on the agenda for how many years?

Looking at today and tomorrow irrespective of time of day the České Dráhy fare on the commuter belt from Pardubice to Praha is 213 Kč with a couple of reservation compulsory trains which are an extra 35 Kč. Turn up and board any train whether next stop Praha, a semi fast or an all stops. The distance is around 63 miles or 104 km.

The main private operator, RegioJet are charging between 114 Kč and 204 Kč 2nd class. This company does not allowing standing on board, no seat reservation equals no boarding. And it is enforced.

[JayMac]

Pull this stunt at an airport.

Not a comparison. You can't pull such a 'stunt' at an airport. You cannot board an earlier or later flight than your ticket is valid for either by accident or design. At an airport, tickets, documents and boarding passes are checked numerous times before you take your seat.

[eightonedee]

I think that Jaymac hits the nail on the head - we have a primarily turn up and pay system, that's what most passengers think they have and want. Most are not booking a flight to go on holiday, paying extra to book in luggage and having (in most cases) to go through passport and security checks. Give us what we want if you want to encourage more of us to use trains or travel on them more frequently.

There's a lot of talk (hot air?) about fair simplification to encourage more train travel - here's a few ideas for some basic, "passenger focused" rules -

1 - You pay for the journey, not the train. If you have a ticket from A to Z, you can catch any train that travels between A and Z, subject only to peak hours rules. If you fall foul of these peak hours rules, you can pay the excess on arrival at A before boarding the train, at Z before departing the station, or on the train without penalty. No need to get into whether it's an innocent mistake or not (you cannot judge this reliably on the spot). There should not normally be any discount for paying in advance, but if a ticket is sold at a discount as a sales promotion, then it will be treated as if it was paid full fare. No such promotions will be allowed that impose restrictive terms that breach this fundamental rule, nor any of the others below.

2- The only thing that will be train-specific is booking a seat, at a modest (fixed?) premium. If you decide not to take that train, or are late to the departure point other than as a result of a late running in-bound connection you forfeit this. If you miss the train because of a late connection, or because of a cancellation, you are entitled to an immediate refund. If it's a cancellation, and you paid by card, it should be possible to do this immediately to your card.

3 - If you are travelling in or out of the TfL^» (Transport for London - about) travel zones, and have an Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) Card, or some other TfL ticket, you need only pay from the edge of Zone 6 to your destination, and can take any train, even if it's non-stop to your destination from a London terminus - you can switch from Underground/Overground at any convenient point along the route. Some rules will no doubt be needed for touching in and out - perhaps "connection" touch in and out pads at all Tfl/National Rail interchange stations.

4 - Generally - you can break your journey as many times as you like along the route within the period of validity without penalty, and you can "short stop" without penalty - if a TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) or GBR^▸ (Great British Railways) is dumb enough to have fares (even offers) that are less than for a longer journey on the same route, all passengers can take advantage and finish their journey and start a return journey at the intermediate station at the lower price without penalty.

5 - If there are two fares for adjoining parts of the journey that are cheaper than the whole, you can buy tickets for the two legs and undertake the whole journey without any requirement to break it or use a train that stops at the "break" between the two tickets without penalty. It's up to the TOC/GBR to ensure that there are no such anomalies, but if there are then the passenger need not be concerned about any rules to take advantage of them.

What do others think?   Or should this be the start of a new thread?

[Ralph Ayres]

What do others think?   Or should this be the start of a new thread?

1.  This means open house on just buying an off-peak ticket then travelling on a peak train and only paying the extra if you happen to get checked at the start/end of the journey or en route.  Plenty of cases where that quite reasonably won't happen (crowded train, short journey, minor station, interchange to tube across platform).  No incentive to buy the correct ticket.
2.  Fair enough. 
3.  I wonder if by "Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) Card" you mean one with a Travelcard already on it?  Increasingly a niche case with changed working habits, but you can anyway already do as you describe.  If you're wanting to use pay as you go instead, the real answer is to be able to buy a combined ticket for your whole journey at the expected price rather than juggling two different payment media.  Consistent pricing needs a single authority setting all fares, rather than the current split between the Mayor of London and the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).  Yet another type of validator (already pink and yellow which confuses enough!) really isn't the answer.
4.  Broadly the case already on most tickets, except unsurprisingly those that are train-specific.  Some inconsistencies in pricing exist deliberately to cater for different service levels or demand to/from different places on the same line, and opening the loophole as described would mean the more generous offering would end up being removed.
5.  Similarly to 4, this could be because that intermediate station has a poor service with slower trains, most passing through without stopping.  Would you want to penalise those actually travelling to/from there by having their fares adjusted up to avoid the summing anomaly?

More generally, this level of simplification completely removes the ability to offer bargain train-specific fares to encourage travel on particularly quiet trains.  Simplification does not equate to cheaper fares, in fact for many journeys the opposite will apply.

[JayMac]

1.  This means open house on just buying an off-peak ticket then travelling on a peak train and only paying the extra if you happen to get checked at the start/end of the journey or en route.  Plenty of cases where that quite reasonably won't happen (crowded train, short journey, minor station, interchange to tube across platform).  No incentive to buy the correct ticket.

This is allowed under the Conditions of Travel. Whether or not the passenger is given an opportunity to pay the excess is down the operator.

9.5 Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak”
Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are
travelling; or
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and
the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

[eightonedee]

Dealing with some of the points not just addressed by Jaymac-

3 - Forgive my yokel ignorance of Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) Cards, but I understood that Travelcards were an entirely different thing. I am aware that those travelling out of London who hold an Oyster Card find the whole business of working out what they can do when they travel outside the TfL^» (Transport for London - about) zones confusing. I was attempting to suggest some kind of simplification. Happy for others who understand more to suggest something better - but please make it simple and easy to understand.

4/5 - The main point is that all these attempts to influence travel habits by building in anomalies to try to get people to use what are seen to be lesser-used trains are the ultimate reason the fare structure is such a convoluted mess. If we want a simpler fare structure that is fair for passengers, then fiddling around like this should be ended. And this means generally there should be no specific fares for particular trains, except sleepers or other services where there genuinely is something different being offered.

Primarily you are (and expect to be) charged on the distance travelled. We keep reading that there will be some who will lose out on any simplification. But if someone is paying more than another travelling a shorter distance to the same destination, but less than another person travelling from a previous stop on the same service to the same destination, people will generally accept that this is fair.

[UstiImmigrunt]

Pull this stunt at an airport.

Not a comparison. You can't pull such a 'stunt' at an airport. You cannot board an earlier or later flight than your ticket is valid for either by accident or design. At an airport, tickets, documents and boarding passes are checked numerous times before you take your seat.

Exactly my point. You can't buy a ticket for one plane then try to board another. So why do some passengers try do that with advance purchase train tickets?

[UstiImmigrunt]

Around 18 months to two years ago the ability to buy privilege rate tickets online became available. As an experiment I looked up London (any) to Birmingham (any).

I think over 20 options were shown ranging from £8 to £110! And this is with 75% off.

Luckily I was on a BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) box that day but if it's a minefield for staff then how are the passengers supposed have the correct ticket for the journey being made?

[eightonedee]

Exactly my point. You can't buy a ticket for one plane then try to board another. So why do some passengers try do that with advance purchase train tickets?

But that is exactly

my

point. By all means sell tickets in advance, but on the same terms as turn up and pay customers so everyone knows the rules and they are simple and fair. As I said in my post, separate out reserving a seat in advance from paying for the journey itself, and if you miss the train you can still travel, you just don't get the seat of your choice.

If we are to simplify rail fares and make rail travel attractive there are two easy wins - harmonising rules applicable to advance and walk up fares, and stop trying to influence travel habits by complex fare structures backed up with complex rules about ticket validity.

Trains are not planes. With the exception of Eurostar, there is a substantial proportion of walk up passengers, most stop at several points on route, there are no immigration and security formalities, not the severe restriction on space and luggage weight with the need to carry most of it separately to the passenger accommodation. It's much closer to a bus or coach, but with more flexibility as to passenger capacity.

[ChrisB]

...most stop at several points on route...

Hmmm. I'd love to see any research done on this - do many break a journey, or simply go from A to B and then most back to A? I suspect that I'm not far wrong in that very few break a journey.

[grahame]

...most stop at several points on route...

Hmmm. I'd love to see any research done on this - do many break a journey, or simply go from A to B and then most back to A? I suspect that I'm not far wrong in that very few break a journey.

I read that as most trains stop at several points along the route.   I can think of Stourbridge Junction to Stourbridge Town, Waterloo to Bank, and some Kings Cross to Cambridge services that don't.

[Mark A]

... and for rail travel, it can be a major major benefit for passengers: out to 'B', back from 'C' without the car shuffle.

Mark