Are the railways fit for their (future) purpose?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Some new purposes away from London commuting and intercity business trips ...

Are the railways fit for purpose?  (1)

I was seated at dinner next to Jim and Jemima (not their real names) last night - from Norfolk, on a two week cruise from Southampton.  On Saturday morning, they had driven from their home near Norwich to Southampton, where their car is parked up for a fortnight. On hearing that Lisa and I had travelled by train, Jim commented "it's not practical for us - trains from Norwich arrive into Liverpool Street, and with our cases for two weeks, it's an impractically awkward tube journeys across London"

Are the railways fit for purpose? (2)

From a correspondent, quoted with permission

My daughter has had problems getting to Bruton this week. On her first day her trains were late in both directions. The morning train was a few minutes late but not good on your first day in a new job. Her train on the way home was 25 minutes late not to good after a full day's work and you just want to get home. Yesterday's train in the morning got cancelled. She got a taxi to work which she paid for herself as she didn't want to be late again. Luckily one of her colleagues was going through Frome last night and dropped her home. She is looking at a flat in Bruton  on Monday and after her nightmare commute I would take it.

[snip]

She is meant to start at 9am.  She would have to get up at 4 - 5 am in order to catch the 7am train. Which would arrive in Bruton well ahead of 9am. Her bosses at [redacted] have been very good and are allowing her to start at 10 because of the train issue.

Hi G if you want more her train yesterday morning was 10 minutes late. If she had got the train back it was 12 minutes late. [redacted] have after work drinks on a Friday so staff can get together so her friend dropped her home. Not to sure if the trains are running late because of works on the line between Yoevil and Weymouth and Bristol and Bath

My daughter is loving her new job. The only thing she hates is her commute. She panics if her train is late as they have been good to allow her to start late. For her this situation isn't ideal long term as it adds to her anxiety. If she has any sense she will take the flat she is going to see on Monday. She will get home at 1810 instead of 1930

[snip]

More issues with this morning's train she is getting another taxi to work

Are the railways fit for purpose?  (3)

Coming from London to Southampton on Saturday, Dennis from Hertforshire took the train into St Pancras, the tube to Waterloo, and SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) onwards on a train scheduled to call at Southampton Central. They got as far as Eastleigh, where an on-train announcement told them that their onward driver was stuck on a bus in a traffic jam, but would be with them soon.  Half an hour later, they were told he had transferred to a taxi but to sit tight. And after a further half hour, they were told to get off the train and wait on the platform as plans had changed and this one was going back to London.

Are the railways fit for purpose?  (4)

On Saturday, Lisa and I travelled from Melksham - also headed for Southampton, but we chose to route via Reading as we didn't fancy getting our cases on and off the rail replacement buses running from Salisbury to Southampton.

For no clear reason, our initial train was 8 minutes late (following back the path pointed to a tardy ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) from Bristol Temple Meads to Westbury), but the train manager advised us that we would make the connection into our advance ticket "this train only" connection on to Reading.  Turns out he was wrong - we stopped just before Thingley Junction to let our connecting train through, then stopped again just outside Chippenham, presumably to let it do station duties ahead of us.

From 8 late at Melksham, we rolled into Swindon 18 minutes late, with another London train at the next platform.  A dash up to that, but the train manager was intent on dispatch and the people who were connecting through from the TransWilts were left standing on the platform while he himself boarded.  We all piled on to a very "well" loaded IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) from Swansea, 2 wrongs making a better-but-not-quite-right as we only got that because it, too, was significantly late.  We arrived into Reading at 10:03, as against the 09:41 scheduled.  Fortunately, we had a substantial layover there awaiting the two-hourly service to Southampton.

Are the railways fit for purpose?

With changed travel requirements, what is the purpose of the railways these days? With the exception of my experiences (no. 4), these are all relative newcomers put off or hindered by the system which really needs to be updated in terms of scheduling and actually running services when and where they are wanted.

1. Services such as the now-withdrawn trains from the Great Eastern main line to Basingstoke would have provided Jim and Jemima with a 2 (or perhaps 1) easy change route through (and they would have preferred that to driving, which was the lesser of 2 evils for them).

2. Services running at the times they are meant to run (not significnalty late nor cancelled) would help people who are still travelling daily, and that's especially important on lines where the timetable is infrequent

3. When things go wrong, providing accurate information would really help - or if there's no accurate and certain information, making people aware of that would help in customer relations.  Holding people for an hour before saying that the promised onward journey is cancelled after all seems almost designed to enrage

4. Dispatching a train while people are running up to it from a late-running connection may help the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s contract compliance - but it certainly doesn't help in the eyes of the passengers who, already delayed, see the train to their destination pull away with them left on the platform.

Cue the explanations of why this sort of thing which puts the customer off is a necessary part of rail travel? ... There will always be the occasional hiccough, but these things seem to be almost the routine challenge of rail travel these days.

[Red Squirrel]

[...]
4. Dispatching a train while people are running up to it from a late-running connection may help the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s contract compliance - but it certainly doesn't help in the eyes of the passengers who, already delayed, see the train to their destination pull away with them left on the platform.
[...]

This reminded me of an old BTF film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AbK_zqauzU

[Bmblbzzz]

Your point 3 could be summed up as railways being unfit for purpose as a result of roads being unfit for purpose.

As a semi-related but illustrative note, Pacific National, an Australian freight carrier, this year introduced crew cabs in its freight trains to take off-duty crew back to base. Their main motive was safety – it seems they were losing crew to road crashes when driving across the country – but cost and predictability also factors.

[grahame]

Your point 3 could be summed up as railways being unfit for purpose as a result of roads being unfit for purpose.

As a semi-related but illustrative note, Pacific National, an Australian freight carrier, this year introduced crew cabs in its freight trains to take off-duty crew back to base. Their main motive was safety – it seems they were losing crew to road crashes when driving across the country – but cost and predictability also factors.

It comes down to organisation to some extent, though.   I'm not sure how much truth there is in the story of the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) driver who lives near to Stoke Gifford / Bristol Parkway driving down to his clocking in point at Bristol Temple Meads, to be sent back in a taxi to Stoke Gifford from where, perhaps, he'll drive an empty IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) to Bristol Temple Meads.

[IndustryInsider]

It comes down to organisation to some extent, though.   I'm not sure how much truth there is in the story of the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) driver who lives near to Stoke Gifford / Bristol Parkway driving down to his clocking in point at Bristol Temple Meads, to be sent back in a taxi to Stoke Gifford from where, perhaps, he'll drive an empty IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) to Bristol Temple Meads.

A new depot has recently opened at Bristol Parkway to help reduce unnecessary travel such as that.  It has just over 40 drivers IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly), many (all?) of whom transferred from the main Bristol depot.

[grahame]

Are railways fit for purpose (5)

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)

For years, clubs in England have regularly chosen to fly to Premier League matches.

It is generally the quickest and most convenient option and gives players and staff maximum time to prepare for games.

But as world leaders meet at COP26 in an attempt to avoid the catastrophic effects of climate change, is it time for that practice to stop?

Manchester United caused controversy when they flew to Leicester in October, a journey of roughly 100 miles with an estimated flying time of around 10 minutes.

The Red Devils were travelling the day before their game and said they would not normally fly but cited "circumstances" - there were reports of congestion on the M6 motorway at the time.

Forest Green Rovers owner Dale Vince, whose League Two outfit are regarded as the greenest in the world, told the BBC the Premier League side's decision to fly to Leicester was "horrific".

Sad thing is - the argument seems to be only between flying and driving - rail not even getting a second thought.

[Bmblbzzz]

I expect that with Premier League sides (not FGR!) security might be an issue if travelling by train. Not that the team coach is always secure; I've seen one mobbed by opposition fans (broken windows but I don't think anyone on board was hurt) and that was only a League One match.

[Wizard]

Manchester Utd certainly used to take the train to London for matches. I saw them travelling regularly from Wilmslow.

[Rhydgaled]

I expect that with Premier League sides (not FGR!) security might be an issue if travelling by train. Not that the team coach is always secure; I've seen one mobbed by opposition fans (broken windows but I don't think anyone on board was hurt) and that was only a League One match.

With Premier League sides, is it just the players and one or two managers travelling or is there a large entourage with them? In the latter case, they could charter an entire train.

[Lee]

I expect that with Premier League sides (not FGR!) security might be an issue if travelling by train. Not that the team coach is always secure; I've seen one mobbed by opposition fans (broken windows but I don't think anyone on board was hurt) and that was only a League One match.

With Premier League sides, is it just the players and one or two managers travelling or is there a large entourage with them? In the latter case, they could charter an entire train.

That post reminded me of the trains that Portsmouth fans used to charter to take them to away games when I was a kid, in a manner that would these days certainly have members such as broadgage beaming with approval 

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/football/northstand-nostalgia-martys-trains-really-were-special-1178126

Northstand Nostalgia: Marty's trains really were special

After years of organising coach travel for the Pompey hordes to destinations far and wide, the charismatic and enterprising Martin Fooks decided in the early part of 1979 to up the ante and change his favoured mode of travel from road to rail...

[broadgage]

Not interested in football, but I would support rail travel over road for fans.
Would never be allowed these days !

Guard's van ? no way.
Buffet no way.
Specially chartered train, most unlikely since firstly there would be no stock available, and secondly todays railway simply cant cope with sporting events when the venue and teams participating are unknown until the previous matches have been played.

[Bmblbzzz]

I expect that with Premier League sides (not FGR!) security might be an issue if travelling by train. Not that the team coach is always secure; I've seen one mobbed by opposition fans (broken windows but I don't think anyone on board was hurt) and that was only a League One match.

With Premier League sides, is it just the players and one or two managers travelling or is there a large entourage with them? In the latter case, they could charter an entire train.

Obviously they must have various physios and so on with them, not to mention executives to fill the boxes, but I doubt if it's an entire train load. Even if it is, as Broadgage points out, chartering a train probably isn't so easy nowadays.

[Robin Summerhill]

There is a prayer which goes

O Lord
Please help me to change the things I can change
Accept the things I can’t change
And to know the f@*$£/g difference...

A rail journey from Norwich to Southampton with suitcases is not going to be easy, and I doubt that there would ever be sufficient demand to provide a regular though through service. It would be possible to avoid central London by using the North London line Stratford to Clapham Jcn, but the easiest way to shift two people plus suitcases from Liverpool Street to Waterloo would be in the back of a taxi.

On a commute from Frome to Bruton it was be reasonable to expect a few minutes delay on some trains. They are after all mainly running a much longer route such as Bristol to Weymouth, and out of course delays can and will occur.

Cancellations should only be an exceptional occurrence and ideally should not happen at all. GWRs^▸ (Great Western Railway) track record with this is a disgrace; they are letting their passengers down; they are letting themselves down. How soon would you stop going to Sainsbury’s if they only opened if enough staff turned up and offered you an as-required replacement bus service to Sainsbury’s in Chippenham instead? I think I already know the answer.

I have much the same view on your point 3 about people being turfed off a train at Eastleigh. Once upon a time Eastleigh used to have a shedful of drivers. If SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) can’t find a spare driver to work that train forward then someone in senior management should get it in the neck.

They can only get away with it because they have a virtual monopoly on rail services in their area. I can’t see renationalisation, in whatever form it takes, sorting that out. Senior management in GWR should be being hauled over the coals on a regular basis about it and if things didn’t improve they should be awarded the DCM (Don’t come Monday). This has got to stop – last week.

I am less agitated about delaying late running trains even more. You have to take into account that that connection was not a booked one, and also that there are other people in that train who are already delayed, and it could be argued that to delay them still further whilst the train waits for connecting passengers who shouldn’t have had to connect into it anyway could be seen as a little selfish

[grahame]

There is a prayer which goes

O Lord
Please help me to change the things I can change
Accept the things I can’t change
And to know the f@*$£/g difference...

Taking a step back, we should understand what would benefit from change in the first place before we can either help change or accept them as they are.

[Bob_Blakey]

...A rail journey from Norwich to Southampton with suitcases is not going to be easy, and I doubt that there would ever be sufficient demand to provide a regular though through service. It would be possible to avoid central London by using the North London line Stratford to Clapham Jcn, but the easiest way to shift two people plus suitcases from Liverpool Street to Waterloo would be in the back of a taxi. ...

A few things occurred to me having read the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) and the above response; the level of demand for a through Norwich>Southampton service might be doubted by most people but I would be very interested to know if the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) or any of their agents has ever looked at the (ticket) data to form a quantitative view. Probably not?

Would it be beyond the capabilities of the relevant cruise ship company(ies) to provide taxi or, if customer numbers rendered it appropriate, minibus (with plenty of room for luggage, obviously) connections between the arrival station and London Waterloo as part of the package?

If it becomes apparent that demand does exist EWR (East-West Rail) could in the future be used to provide a more direct service but in the meantime, since it already covers the route from Southampton to Ely, albeit not continuously, XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) could do the job.

Too much to hope for I guess.