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Author Topic: Storm Barra  (Read 3401 times)
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2021, 12:37:12 pm »

I'm afraid it will take another sea wall collapse, rather than just a dew hours of disruption once or twice a year, for the inland route to get seriously back on the agenda.
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« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2021, 01:20:03 pm »

Blame this on bad weather not on faulty trains.

Not just ordinary bad weather..............it's "climate change", we are repeatedly told. That will be made worse by me driving round more in my Fiesta because the rail service I used more than any other is about to be withdrawn !!

Expecting any sort of change of tack by those who procured the IETs (Intercity Express Train) is futile. We've had the wrong sort of snow followed now by the wrong sort of wind ...................wrong sort of trains Huh ....Nooooo chance !
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broadgage
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« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2021, 02:31:31 pm »

Blame this on bad weather not on faulty trains.

Not just ordinary bad weather..............it's "climate change", we are repeatedly told. That will be made worse by me driving round more in my Fiesta because the rail service I used more than any other is about to be withdrawn !!

Expecting any sort of change of tack by those who procured the IETs (Intercity Express Train) is futile. We've had the wrong sort of snow followed now by the wrong sort of wind ...................wrong sort of trains Huh ....Nooooo chance !

This particular fiasco should be blamed not on those who PROCURED the IETs but on those who BUILT them. Years ago, I and my now famous crystal ball, and others expressed doubts about the ability of the then proposed trains to cope with Dawlish conditions.
Advocates of the new units pointed out that the ability to cope with these conditions was an "essential requirement" and that this would not be a problem.
So this failure is down to Hitachi "you built them, you make them work"

Likewise the multiple cracks and lack of any action to deal with same is not the fault of those who procured the wretched things, but is down to Hitachi for defective design or construction "you built them, you make them work"

Other problems such as being too short, and the absence of buffets, hard seats, and the inadequate luggage space, ARE the fault of those who specified and procured the nasty things.
Cant blame Hitachi for building 5 car units as that is what the customer ordered.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 02:38:05 pm by broadgage » Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2021, 03:48:31 pm »


Didn't Network Rail judge it to be "expensive but feasible" ? Is the plan to knock down anything in the way? If so, what specifically gets bulldozed?

I've done an in-depth survey (alright, a quick shufti at Google Maps), and the only physical barrier seems to be West Devon's council offices, which they have said they would happily relocate. Some of the trackbed has disappeared into farmland, but actual demolition work isn't likely to take more than a morning.

I am afraid it is not quite that simple, as the photos in the anti-reopening blog piece I linked to last night showed.

So, aside from the council offices we also have:

Housing at the old Tavistock North Railway Station.


Housing blocking the route at the end of the Tavistock Viaduct.


Other issues the anti-reopening folk point to include loss of cycle/walking paths, impact on rural dwellings and farms, including the former Brentor railway station, impact on wildlife, the need to replace Meldon Viaduct, and the impact of new modern replacement bridges and associated permanent way and other infrastructure on the landscape and tranquility thereof.

None of it insurmountable in the face of precedents such as the Borders Railway of course, but perhaps not a given either.

I'm afraid it will take another sea wall collapse, rather than just a dew hours of disruption once or twice a year, for the inland route to get seriously back on the agenda.


Perhaps not right now, but the Network Rail Resilience Study was conducted well before the Okehampton reopening, and if Bere Alston-Tavistock follows relatively swiftly, and given that a dedicated bus link is now already established between Tavistock and Okehampton in the middle, then suddenly the prospects and business case for full reopening may start to look very different.
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« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2021, 04:20:46 pm »

Perhaps not right now, but the Network Rail Resilience Study was conducted well before the Okehampton reopening, and if Bere Alston-Tavistock follows relatively swiftly, and given that a dedicated bus link is now already established between Tavistock and Okehampton in the middle, then suddenly the prospects and business case for full reopening may start to look very different.

I hope so...but I doubt it.
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« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2021, 04:29:09 pm »

 There does not seem to be any contingency now, for what is usually an
annual event. Virtually no replacement coach service, due to cost ?

 Wouldn't a Castle HST (High Speed Train) shuttle service between Newton Abbot/Exeter worked ?
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broadgage
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« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2021, 05:07:36 pm »

There does not seem to be any contingency now, for what is usually an
annual event. Virtually no replacement coach service, due to cost ?

 Wouldn't a Castle HST (High Speed Train) shuttle service between Newton Abbot/Exeter worked ?

Yes an HST shuttle would work, but see my earlier remarks regarding the use of an HST being simply too embarrassing.
Coaches too hard to arrange and also expensive. Simpler just to say "do not attempt travel in bad weather" Blame the weather NOT IETs (Intercity Express Train).
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2021, 05:16:58 pm »

A YouTube video with 115000 views in a day, and lots of negative press for IETs (Intercity Express Train)/Hitachi. 

I'd say that was more embarrassing than had a shuttle service of Castle HSTs (High Speed Train) been arranged - which, after all, regularly ply up and down the same tracks anyway.
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broadgage
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« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2021, 05:28:42 pm »

A YouTube video with 115000 views in a day, and lots of negative press for IETs (Intercity Express Train)/Hitachi. 

I'd say that was more embarrassing than had a shuttle service of Castle HSTs (High Speed Train) been arranged - which, after all, regularly ply up and down the same tracks anyway.

This fiasco was indeed embarrassing and generated negative publicity, but this should be one off.
Much better in future to simply say that "services are liable to be suspended during high tides" After a while people will simply blame the weather/global warming. And forget all about the defective trains. And forget that they USED to have through trains even in bad weather.

Use of HSTs would be an ongoing embarrassment EACH TIME they were used.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2021, 05:45:12 pm »

Why should it be a one off?
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« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2021, 06:09:46 pm »

This particular fiasco should be blamed not on those who PROCURED the IETs (Intercity Express Train) but on those who BUILT them.

So this failure is down to Hitachi "you built them, you make them work"


Totally agree with you there - but many/most/all of the large contractors out there who bid for Government work of all sorts know full well that this procurer never enforces its legal rights.

Trains, aeroplanes, submarines, hospitals, motorways, PPE, rail electrification, etc, etc are procured with the supplier knowing full well that if it doesn't meet the spec then the only way for the customer to get it fixed is for him to cough up more taxpayers' money. Then depending on the end user the money either appears - or doesn't - the rail passenger comes well down that list. So it is highly likely that the IET will limp on for many years to come (except past Dawlish of course)

No one tries that trick on Tesco, John Lewis or M & S - not more than once anyway !

Been there, seen it, done it, had it done to me !!
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broadgage
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« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2021, 06:21:18 pm »

Why should it be a one off?

Because the future policy is likely to be "carefully targeted" closures of the line at Dawlish when high tides and high winds are expected.
Blame it on the weather, not faulty trains.

Passengers can be advised not to travel, and those who choose to try and travel will have to wait for the tide to go out. Being stuck on a clearly dead train at or near Dawlish gives a poor impression of the new trains.

Being held at Taunton for a couple of hours "due to extreme weather" attaches no blame to the trains, just to the weather.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2021, 06:29:48 pm »

Because the future policy is likely to be "carefully targeted" closures of the line at Dawlish when high tides and high winds are expected.

Why is that likely?  Do you know something I don't, or is this just opinion/prediction?

Would it not be embarrassing to instigate a 'targeted closures the line' policy just after you've spent £80m finishing extra defences for it?
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broadgage
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« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2021, 07:04:20 pm »

It is a prediction, based upon previous experience.
Voyagers failed to work in severe but entirely predictable conditions at Dawlish. And what was the result ? Modify the voyagers to work ? not likely, simply say "no voyagers in bad weather"

It was an "essential requirement" that IETs (Intercity Express Train) should withstand the conditions at Dawlish. They do not as multiple failures have shown. Will hitachi be compelled to make them work ? Not likely ! Simply say "NO IETs in bad weather" and avoid bad publicity.
Cancel services, or delay them until the tide goes out. All due to extreme weather. Just as Cross Country do.

After a while most passengers will forget that they used to get through trains even in bad weather. Those who DO remember can be told that this  is due to climate change and nothing to do with new trains.

A lot of money has indeed been spent on rebuilding/improving the sea wall, but AFAIK (as far as I know) this was primarily to stop it washing away, and not to facilitate the operation of faulty trains.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2021, 07:40:23 pm »

No trains at all during the next storm then.  You heard it here first.
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