100mph trains to Aylesbury

[whole diary]

[infoman]

Sky news item on Thursday morning about the first 100mph bio trains.

[grahame]

Sky news item on Thursday morning about the first 100mph bio trains.

But is it "bio"?  Is this the same story:

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/uks-first-100mph-battery-diesel-6632329

The UK^▸ (United Kingdom)’s first 100mph battery-diesel hybrid train is entering passenger service in an effort to cut carbon emissions and boost air quality.

It was developed by adding a powerful battery to a 20-year-old diesel train to reduce fuel consumption and CO2 emissions by 25 per cent, according to owner Porterbrook.

The firm added that the two-carriage train, named HybridFLEX, also provides a 75 per cent decrease in noise and a 70 per cent decrease in nitrogen oxide.

The Government has pledged to remove all diesel-only trains from UK railways by 2040.

Chiltern Railways will introduce the train on its 40-mile route between London Marylebone and Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, today (Thursday).

It reads a bit woolly to me about how the batteries are charged - I suspect they're used to level out engine running speed to make it more efficient, charging the batteries at times of low load when energy would otherwise be wasted, and then used at times that full, inefficient diesel power would have been needed in the past.  In my reading, still a diesel train, though one with a far better fuel and environment profile.

Chiltern are stated as being a diesel only franchise.  Are there any other franchises which are still 100% diesel? Cross Country?  Transport for Wales?

[ChrisB]

I’m pretty sure XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) are.

Chiltern’s train above is designed to use battery at & leaving stations such that there’s no exhaust fumes around them, particularly at terminus stations like Marylebone

[paul7575]

I’m pretty sure XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) are.

Chiltern’s train above is designed to use battery at & leaving stations such that there’s no exhaust fumes around them, particularly at terminus stations like Marylebone

For me, there are far too many confusing uses of similar names for railway power stuff nowadays.  AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) this is a production scale development of a Hybrid power pack, as demonstrated in that Hitachi modified HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power car quite a few years ago.  So a battery fitted DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit).  This has noise and pollution reduction benefits that were possibly not emphasised so much with the Hitachi version, which IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) was all about performance benefits and economy.

But what other uses of “hybrid” would I find if I looked? 
Firstly hybrid is fairly regularly used to describe bi-mode traction, powered by electricity OR diesel, such as in the IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.).  Then there’s the “hybrid” DMU or EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit), used when a unit has been formed up out of individual carriages that weren’t originally delivered as one. 

Other “Hy” derivatives might be Hy-drive, Hydro-drive, (so is that hydraulic or hydrogen?), etc etc…

Paul 

[Mark A]

Chiltern’s train above is designed to use battery at & leaving stations such that there’s no exhaust fumes around them, particularly at terminus stations like Marylebone

This caught my... ear. Having been away from major stations for a bit, one of the standout features of changing trains at Bristol Temple Meads at the weekend was how incredibly noisy GWRs^▸ (Great Western Railway)... are they 166s... are for passengers on a platform. Also particularly bad from the Hammersmith and City underground platforms at Paddington unless the pattern of use of the main line platform alongside has changed. Hopefully this is something that will catch on.

[IndustryInsider]

Hardly any trains on diesel use Paddington any more, so the H&C Line platforms are now so much better to wait on with Platform 14 usually occupied with an 8-car 387. 

The whole station is now a much quieter and pleasant place with screeching brakes and loud engines on 180s and smoky HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power cars a thing of the past.

[infoman]

Please don't shoot the messenger,I only posted the info as I saw it on Sky News,

If you don't agree with any posting,just e-mail the poster concerned.

[stuving]

This was announced by Porterbrook et al last July, and all the details are on this previous thread.

[Mark A]

Ooh. Regenerative braking too.

[stuving]

This was announced by Porterbrook et al last July, and all the details are on this previous thread.

Sorry - last July was the "launch", whatever that means. The original project announcement (at the start of that thread) was in 2018, which makes the timescale more plausible. So today is the first one - a prototype in some sense - going into passenger service.

Who thinks it will do better for reliability than Porterbrook's other re-engining project?

[grahame]

Please don't shoot the messenger,I only posted the info as I saw it on Sky News,

If you don't agree with any posting, just e-mail the poster concerned.

Sorry - no intent to shoot a messenger - rather intent to "shoot" Sky News who you were just reporting.  Yes, where a member makes a significant error of fact I would tend to send a personal message to let him/her know my concerns.

[broadgage]

So far as I can tell, these trains are still 100% diesel powered. When in battery mode they use energy stored in the batteries. These batteries were charged from the diesel engines at times when full diesel power was not needed.

This makes better use of diesel fuel, but still 100% diesel powered. Smaller diesel engines may be used, or existing diesel engines may, in conjunction with battery storage, power a longer train.

A forward step, but a rather small forward step. Not comparable to an electric train powered from OHLE or from conductor rails, nor comparable to a battery train that is charged from a "shore" supply, or from electrification infrastructure.

[ChrisB]

Disagree (again)

Emission figures will be zero at the times that it's running on battery. It will not emit extra emissions when charging said battery, thus a net loss in emissions. Convert the fleet & that's a major saving

[grahame]

A forward step, but a rather small forward step. Not comparable to an electric train powered from OHLE or from conductor rails, nor comparable to a battery train that is charged from a "shore" supply, or from electrification infrastructure.

Disagree (again)

Emission figures will be zero at the times that it's running on battery. It will not emit extra emissions when charging said battery, thus a net loss in emissions. Convert the fleet & that's a major saving

Figures reported earlier in this thread:
Fuel consumption - down by 25%
CO2 emissions - down by 25%
Noise - down by 75% (average or maximum noise?)
Nitrogen dioxide - down by 70%

I'll leave each member to come to their own decision as to whether that's "a rather small step forward", "a major saving", or indeed both (both a small step when so much more is possible, but a major saving because there's just so far to go)

[broadgage]

There will indeed be no emissions in battery mode, but in diesel mode there will be EXTRA emissions in order to produce the energy used to charge the battery.

A reduction of 25% in fuel consumption and therefore also a reduction of 25% in carbon dioxide emissions is a relatively small reduction if compared to the use of an electric train. (battery powered or OHLE powered)