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Author Topic: Rail unions strike action 2022/2023/2024  (Read 81839 times)
Electric train
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« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2022, 18:59:29 »

Sadly for the travelling public these strikes will only end up with increased fares and less services in the long run.  As for many of the NR» (Network Rail - home page) staff in Maintenance that are taking strike action they will more than likely end leaving NR and work for many of the contractors who are offering substantially higher salaries than NR and on better terms
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Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2022, 19:57:11 »

It may start moving the conversation in areas that railway unions and those working in it would find uncomfortable. For example this letter from independent pensions expert John Ralfe in The Times today:
Quote
In quoting headline pay, unions ignore the annual value of the generous defined benefit pensions — deferred salary — and a huge part of overall pay for rail staff. Not only are rail pensions guaranteed they still have a retirement age of 60 and unlimited annual inflation increases. After a member's own contributions, the annual cost to rail companies — and ultimately taxpayers — is more than 50 per cent of salary. Meanwhile, even the most generous private sector defined contribution pensions have employer contributions of 15 per cent of salary, and most are much lower.

The answer to any pay squeeze for rail staff is simple: reduce the generosity of future pensions by closing the defined benefit scheme and moving to defined contributions, and then use some of the savings to increase pay.

Seriously?

I genuinely didn't even realise those sort of "gold plated" pensions still existed......certainly not able to be taken at 60!

That's 7 years before retirement age for most others!

I can imagine the reaction of Bruvver Lynch et al though if moves were made to bring these pensions into line with those the rest of us have to look forward to, without the benefit of being financed and the risk borne by the taxpayer.
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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2022, 20:44:45 »

It may start moving the conversation in areas that railway unions and those working in it would find uncomfortable. For example this letter from independent pensions expert John Ralfe in The Times today:
Quote
In quoting headline pay, unions ignore the annual value of the generous defined benefit pensions — deferred salary — and a huge part of overall pay for rail staff. Not only are rail pensions guaranteed they still have a retirement age of 60 and unlimited annual inflation increases. After a member's own contributions, the annual cost to rail companies — and ultimately taxpayers — is more than 50 per cent of salary. Meanwhile, even the most generous private sector defined contribution pensions have employer contributions of 15 per cent of salary, and most are much lower.

The answer to any pay squeeze for rail staff is simple: reduce the generosity of future pensions by closing the defined benefit scheme and moving to defined contributions, and then use some of the savings to increase pay.

Seriously?

The Rail Pension Scheme (RPS) which has its origins from BR (British Rail(ways)) Pension Fund still exists, it is currently protected in the 1993 Act "the indefensible right" this was brought about by Robert Maxwell and the fraudulent activates that happened to Mirror Group pension fund that was discovered when he fell off of his Yachet.  Some rail pension scheme benefits are lost if someone moves rail employer, I have moved mine 3 times since 1998.

Of all of the Nationalised industries pension schemes the RPS was the only one that was not "robbed" by the treasury during the privatisation process, the miners, power industry, teaches all had their funds raide; the Unions are concerned that the Government will raid the RPS during the formation of GBR (Great British Railways) .........................

The RPS is no longer a true final salary scheme, the contribution % by the employee are quite high but it's matched by the employer.

I genuinely didn't even realise those sort of "gold plated" pensions still existed......certainly not able to be taken at 60!

That's 7 years before retirement age for most others!

I can imagine the reaction of Bruvver Lynch et al though if moves were made to bring these pensions into line with those the rest of us have to look forward to, without the benefit of being financed and the risk borne by the taxpayer.
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Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2022, 21:34:04 »

I genuinely didn't even realise those sort of "gold plated" pensions still existed......certainly not able to be taken at 60!

That's 7 years before retirement age for most others!

I can imagine the reaction of Bruvver Lynch et al though if moves were made to bring these pensions into line with those the rest of us have to look forward to, without the benefit of being financed and the risk borne by the taxpayer.

Such 'gold plated' pensions were not just public sector.  Once upon a time many private sector employers offered such pensions.  They were encouraged by government to make up for the fact that the UK (United Kingdom) had and still has one of the lowest state pension payments anywhere in Europe.


When UK governments started to look at surpluses in pension funds in the 1980's they decided these were a tax dodge so Norman Lamont introduced new rules which meant that employers with what government saw as excessive surpluses were required to either improve benefits or take contribution holidays.  Twenty years on and investment returns were not as good employers started to have problems and needed to put more money it to fund deficits.  Much blame was placed on Gordon Brown as chancellor, but the damage was done much earlier.

As a trustee of one such fund that took a contribution holiday were were advised that were it not for that government interference that forced us to take a contribution holiday the fund would not have the massive deficit. 

In a different fund where I am a member the private company could not support the deficit and I am left with a much reduced pension because it has gone into the pension protection fund. 

So government failed to fund pensions then sabotaged the system that made up for this. 
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broadgage
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2022, 21:41:54 »

What happens to union members who were due to start work at say 20-00 on the evening before a strike day.
Are they expected to turn up as usual and walk out at midnight ?
Or not to turn up at all.

Likewise, what about those due to start work at say 22-00 on a strike day ? Delay starting work until midnight ?

Or to take the extreme case, what about a worker booked for an 8 hour shift, of which 7.5 hours fall into the 24 hour strike period, and 30 minutes into the following or preceeding non strike day.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2022, 22:00:46 »

I genuinely didn't even realise those sort of "gold plated" pensions still existed......certainly not able to be taken at 60!

That's 7 years before retirement age for most others!

I can imagine the reaction of Bruvver Lynch et al though if moves were made to bring these pensions into line with those the rest of us have to look forward to, without the benefit of being financed and the risk borne by the taxpayer.

Such 'gold plated' pensions were not just public sector.  Once upon a time many private sector employers offered such pensions.  They were encouraged by government to make up for the fact that the UK (United Kingdom) had and still has one of the lowest state pension payments anywhere in Europe.


When UK governments started to look at surpluses in pension funds in the 1980's they decided these were a tax dodge so Norman Lamont introduced new rules which meant that employers with what government saw as excessive surpluses were required to either improve benefits or take contribution holidays.  Twenty years on and investment returns were not as good employers started to have problems and needed to put more money it to fund deficits.  Much blame was placed on Gordon Brown as chancellor, but the damage was done much earlier.

As a trustee of one such fund that took a contribution holiday were were advised that were it not for that government interference that forced us to take a contribution holiday the fund would not have the massive deficit. 

In a different fund where I am a member the private company could not support the deficit and I am left with a much reduced pension because it has gone into the pension protection fund. 

So government failed to fund pensions then sabotaged the system that made up for this. 

Without wishing to go too far off topic, I think you'll find it was Nigel Lawson, not Norman Lamont but yes certainly Brown landed a killer blow......this explains it rather well.......

https://theconversation.com/britains-great-pension-robbery-why-the-defined-benefits-gold-standard-is-a-luxury-of-the-past-100844
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trainbuff
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2022, 00:38:14 »

It may start moving the conversation in areas that railway unions and those working in it would find uncomfortable. For example this letter from independent pensions expert John Ralfe in The Times today:
Quote
In quoting headline pay, unions ignore the annual value of the generous defined benefit pensions — deferred salary — and a huge part of overall pay for rail staff. Not only are rail pensions guaranteed they still have a retirement age of 60 and unlimited annual inflation increases. After a member's own contributions, the annual cost to rail companies — and ultimately taxpayers — is more than 50 per cent of salary. Meanwhile, even the most generous private sector defined contribution pensions have employer contributions of 15 per cent of salary, and most are much lower.

The answer to any pay squeeze for rail staff is simple: reduce the generosity of future pensions by closing the defined benefit scheme and moving to defined contributions, and then use some of the savings to increase pay.

Seriously?

I genuinely didn't even realise those sort of "gold plated" pensions still existed......certainly not able to be taken at 60!

That's 7 years before retirement age for most others!

I can imagine the reaction of Bruvver Lynch et al though if moves were made to bring these pensions into line with those the rest of us have to look forward to, without the benefit of being financed and the risk borne by the taxpayer.

For non BR (British Rail(ways)) staff it is currently 62. Bear in mind the shift pattern that workers do. Wrecks the body. Many have blood pressure and type 2 diabetes. How does a body cope with finishing late, at say 1am on a Sunday morning, having a 'day off' and booking on at 3am on the Monday morning? Not all the time but does happen, more frequently then it should. Imagine doing that for 40+ years.
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trainbuff
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« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2022, 00:40:31 »

What happens to union members who were due to start work at say 20-00 on the evening before a strike day.
Are they expected to turn up as usual and walk out at midnight ?
Or not to turn up at all.

Likewise, what about those due to start work at say 22-00 on a strike day ? Delay starting work until midnight ?

Or to take the extreme case, what about a worker booked for an 8 hour shift, of which 7.5 hours fall into the 24 hour strike period, and 30 minutes into the following or preceeding non strike day.

They are still expected to work their shift
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« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2022, 00:59:40 »

What happens to union members who were due to start work at say 20-00 on the evening before a strike day.
Are they expected to turn up as usual and walk out at midnight ?
Or not to turn up at all.

Likewise, what about those due to start work at say 22-00 on a strike day ? Delay starting work until midnight ?

Or to take the extreme case, what about a worker booked for an 8 hour shift, of which 7.5 hours fall into the 24 hour strike period, and 30 minutes into the following or preceeding non strike day.

For a 20:00 start the day before, they book on as normal and should be available to complete their shift. As the original post states you are only ‘instructed’ by the RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) to not book on for shifts commencing 00:01-23:59 on strike days.

So for a 22:00 book on on a strike day they would not book on and therefore not be available for the whole shift.

Those basic principles also apply for the ‘extreme example’ you gave.
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broadgage
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« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2022, 01:39:44 »

Thanks for the info in the previous two posts.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
broadgage
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« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2022, 03:13:33 »


For non BR (British Rail(ways)) staff it is currently 62. Bear in mind the shift pattern that workers do. Wrecks the body. Many have blood pressure and type 2 diabetes. How does a body cope with finishing late, at say 1am on a Sunday morning, having a 'day off' and booking on at 3am on the Monday morning? Not all the time but does happen, more frequently then it should. Imagine doing that for 40+ years.

I have long felt that the present shift pattern for railway work is a powerful disincentive to recruitment and retention of staff, and it does indeed have health consequences.

A far better policy in my view would be largely fixed working hours. Some of these hours would be anti social, but in my view fixed anti social shifts are preferable to continual changes.
Regularly starting work at say 03-00 and working until say 11-00 would in my view be preferable to the present arrangements. Overtime working by mutual agreement could consist of EITHER working 6 such shifts in a week rather than 5 shifts, or alternatively starting at say 01-00 instead of at 03-00.

I know of someone who left the railway and now works in a power station. The PERMANENT night shifts rather than an endlessly changing shift pattern was the main reason for the change.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2022, 06:26:52 »


For non BR (British Rail(ways)) staff it is currently 62. Bear in mind the shift pattern that workers do. Wrecks the body. Many have blood pressure and type 2 diabetes. How does a body cope with finishing late, at say 1am on a Sunday morning, having a 'day off' and booking on at 3am on the Monday morning? Not all the time but does happen, more frequently then it should. Imagine doing that for 40+ years.

I have long felt that the present shift pattern for railway work is a powerful disincentive to recruitment and retention of staff, and it does indeed have health consequences.

A far better policy in my view would be largely fixed working hours. Some of these hours would be anti social, but in my view fixed anti social shifts are preferable to continual changes.
Regularly starting work at say 03-00 and working until say 11-00 would in my view be preferable to the present arrangements. Overtime working by mutual agreement could consist of EITHER working 6 such shifts in a week rather than 5 shifts, or alternatively starting at say 01-00 instead of at 03-00.

I know of someone who left the railway and now works in a power station. The PERMANENT night shifts rather than an endlessly changing shift pattern was the main reason for the change.
I seem to remember as a Conductor employed by BR, we did work such shifts. Then their was a dispute over a flexible rostering agreement, if I remember correctly.
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« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2022, 07:24:59 »

Do GWR (Great Western Railway) provide rail replacment buses on strike days?
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« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2022, 07:35:04 »

Do GWR provide rail replacment buses on strike days?

From GWR website:
www.gwr.com/strike

Quote
We are not able to provide bus replacement services.

A useful page with lots of information and answers to questions which I’m sure will be continually updated as and when GWR have further information.
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Electric train
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« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2022, 07:43:56 »

Do GWR provide rail replacment buses on strike days?

There are not enough busses or drivers to cover the service, and the TOC (Train Operating Company)'s are not obliged to provide a replacement as it is something outside of their control and they will have given sufficient notice to their customers.

If they did attempt to provide a bus service the TOC would get slated in the media for long queues, slow and late running services best to just for them to point the finger of blame on the Unions
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Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
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