Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 21:35 28 Mar 2024
* Bus plunges off South Africa bridge, killing 45
* Easter getaways hit by travel disruption
- Where Baltimore bridge investigation goes now
- How do I renew my UK passport and what is the 10-year rule?
- Family anger at sentence on fatal crash driver, 19
- Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
28th Mar (1992)
MOD Kineton tour, branch line society (*)

Train RunningCancelled
18:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
18:36 London Paddington to Plymouth
19:33 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill
19:35 Exeter St Davids to London Paddington
19:59 Gatwick Airport to Reading
20:29 Gatwick Airport to Reading
20:54 Reading to Gatwick Airport
20:56 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington
21:16 Bedwyn to Newbury
21:30 Shalford to Reading
21:53 Newbury to Bedwyn
22:25 Bedwyn to Newbury
22:30 Gatwick Airport to Reading
22:47 Newbury to Bedwyn
Short Run
17:03 London Paddington to Penzance
17:36 London Paddington to Plymouth
18:03 London Paddington to Penzance
19:04 Paignton to London Paddington
20:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
20:42 Bedwyn to London Paddington
21:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
21:20 Bristol Temple Meads to Severn Beach
22:10 Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads
23:04 Reading to Bedwyn
23:17 Bedwyn to Reading
Delayed
16:15 Penzance to London Paddington
Additional 17:26 Castle Cary to Penzance
19:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
21:30 Gatwick Airport to Reading
23:45 London Paddington to Penzance
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 28, 2024, 21:45:27 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[104] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[103] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[78] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[56] If not HS2 to Manchester, how will traffic be carried?
[41] Return of the BRUTE?
[25] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Is Paddington necessary?  (Read 6344 times)
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« on: August 27, 2022, 06:51:26 »


From Friends of the National Railway Museum

Quote
Proposals for a railway between the capital, London, and the country’s “second city”, Bristol, started to emerge as early as 1824, but it wasn’t until 1832 that things started to get serious. Committees representing business interests in London and Bristol formed, and by March 1833 they had appointed Isambard Kingdom Brunel as Engineer for the proposed railway. Bankers and directors were appointed and when the committees met in August 1833, they adopted the name “Great Western Railway” (GWR (Great Western Railway)). Brunel set off in his horse-drawn “britzka” with assistants to survey the likely routes for a project then estimated at a very conservative £2.8 million. By November 1833, Brunel had submitted a report for a railway line starting at Vauxhall very near to the present-day Vauxhall Bridge over the River Thames in London. The line would then run for the first four miles to the west on viaducts through Brompton, Hammersmith, South Acton towards Ealing and then through a tunnel south of Ealing. From Ealing, the line would run to West Drayton and on to Reading, much as the Crossrail/Elizabeth Line does now. The Sonning area on the approach to Reading was to have got a 1¼ mile-long tunnel where the extensive cutting now is. Another [unpopular] option floated in 1835 was for the GWR to share the proposed London & Birmingham Railway terminus at Euston.



Paddington - closed and diverted into Euston
Marylebone - closed and diverted into St Pancras

"London Haupbhanhof" - also south and south east trains from there via Blackfriars
Also served by HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) and HS2 (The next High Speed line(s))
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4356


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2022, 07:25:56 »

There was a plan a few decades ago to terminate all but a few intercity trains a Reading with only local semi fast stoppers and few fasts, with rest of the stopping services being picked up by the then planned Crossrail all stations from Maidenhead the plan was to demolish the fourth arch at Padd have 6 platforms, 2 for HEX 4 for National Rail under the area and turn the main station into a 'venue.'  This was all part of the Paddington master plan which included Paddington basin, Good Shed area, St Marys', the Royal Mail Sorting Office and the office buildings on Eastbourne Terrace.

The question has to be asked is the viability of Paddington when Old Oak Common station opens as part of HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)), with its connections with the Elizabeth Line, HEX, HS2 trains to Euston, if a station was built on the West and North London Lines, Paddington could become like St Pancras when Thameslink opened.  (St Pancras only being rescued by HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel))
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7746



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2022, 08:05:42 »

There was a plan a few decades ago to terminate all but a few intercity trains a Reading with only local semi fast stoppers and few fasts, with rest of the stopping services being picked up by the then planned Crossrail all stations from Maidenhead the plan was to demolish the fourth arch at Padd have 6 platforms, 2 for HEX 4 for National Rail under the area and turn the main station into a 'venue.'  This was all part of the Paddington master plan which included Paddington basin, Good Shed area, St Marys', the Royal Mail Sorting Office and the office buildings on Eastbourne Terrace.

The question has to be asked is the viability of Paddington when Old Oak Common station opens as part of HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)), with its connections with the Elizabeth Line, HEX, HS2 trains to Euston, if a station was built on the West and North London Lines, Paddington could become like St Pancras when Thameslink opened.  (St Pancras only being rescued by HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel))

Paddington Station is a Grade 1 listed building, so I wouldn't start polishing the wrecking ball just yet!  Shocked
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2022, 08:38:29 »

Daft idea IMHO (in my humble opinion). Most long distance passengers business or leisure, want to travel to or from central London. Not Reading.

A connecting service via Reading would for most be a backward step. Two legs to the journey means in practice the risk of something going wrong.
The GWR (Great Western Railway) bit will no doubt go on strike on different days to the TFL (Transport for London) bit, twice as many days a year of disruption.
Connecting services wont.
Endless arguments about through tickets not being valid. Allow an extra hour to get to Reading or face a huge "fine" when crossrail delays result in missing the GWR train.
Standing on a basic commuter train even for a part of the journey is a distinct downgrade.

Before the pandemic, capacity was a growing problem, not just capacity on board the trains, but also station and platform capacity, so is reducing this capacity sensible.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2022, 09:22:41 »

Daft idea IMHO (in my humble opinion)

Is that in reaction to ...
* Divert trains into "London Central" (a.k.a. Kings Cross / St. Pancras / Euston)
or
* Terminate at Reading and have folks use Crossrail or local trains in from there
or something else
* Terminate at Old Oak

<advocate mode=devil>With Euston services reduced from 4 to 1 an hour to Manchester and to 1 an hour to Birmingham, there is capacity there for:
* an hourly train to Swindon, divide for Taunton via Bristol and for Swansea
* a second hourly train to Swindon, divide for Cheltenham Spa and Weymouth
* an hourly train to Exeter, divide for Paignton and Penzance
* an hourly train to Reading, divide for Hereford via Oxford and for Exeter via Salisbury</advocate>

We may be at a real turning point for railways is everyone concerned doesn't get their reliability and other issues sorted out!
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10095


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2022, 10:42:59 »

Terminating most services at Reading?  Well, it was a daft idea a few decades ago when it was ‘suggested’ - I’m not sure why Broadgage is speaking as if it’s an active proposal as there’s absolutely no chance of it happening now with the 8 platform GWR (Great Western Railway)/Elizabeth Line station being built at Old Oak Common.

Paddington will become quieter in terms of passenger numbers that’s for sure.  It will become quieter later this year when through Elizabeth Line services commence, and quieter still when Ols Oak Common opens, but I can’t see any fewer long distance trains using it.

I can see the logic in reducing the number of trains at Marylebone by diverting some of the services that currently use that into Old Oak Common.  Marylebone is cramped now with a small concourse and too much platform sharing of trains, has little scope for expansion, and has poor onward connections.
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4356


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2022, 12:43:23 »

There was a plan a few decades ago to terminate all but a few intercity trains a Reading with only local semi fast stoppers and few fasts, with rest of the stopping services being picked up by the then planned Crossrail all stations from Maidenhead the plan was to demolish the fourth arch at Padd have 6 platforms, 2 for HEX 4 for National Rail under the area and turn the main station into a 'venue.'  This was all part of the Paddington master plan which included Paddington basin, Good Shed area, St Marys', the Royal Mail Sorting Office and the office buildings on Eastbourne Terrace.

The question has to be asked is the viability of Paddington when Old Oak Common station opens as part of HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)), with its connections with the Elizabeth Line, HEX, HS2 trains to Euston, if a station was built on the West and North London Lines, Paddington could become like St Pancras when Thameslink opened.  (St Pancras only being rescued by HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel))

Paddington Station is a Grade 1 listed building, so I wouldn't start polishing the wrecking ball just yet!  Shocked

There was no plan to demolish arches 1 2 & 3 the original Brunel as they are grade 1, however the fourth arc was a later addition 1920's in fact and was never included in the the grade 1 listing, I believe now it is listed.

Terminating most services at Reading?  Well, it was a daft idea a few decades ago when it was ‘suggested’ - I’m not sure why Broadgage is speaking as if it’s an active proposal as there’s absolutely no chance of it happening now with the 8 platform GWR (Great Western Railway)/Elizabeth Line station being built at Old Oak Common.

Paddington will become quieter in terms of passenger numbers that’s for sure.  It will become quieter later this year when through Elizabeth Line services commence, and quieter still when Ols Oak Common opens, but I can’t see any fewer long distance trains using it.

I can see the logic in reducing the number of trains at Marylebone by diverting some of the services that currently use that into Old Oak Common.  Marylebone is cramped now with a small concourse and too much platform sharing of trains, has little scope for expansion, and has poor onward connections.


There may be some challenges in using the old 'High Wycombe' line OOC (Old Oak Common (depot)) via Greenford, I'm not sure how much of the right of way will be left intact by the intervention shafts for HS2

Paddington main station will certainly be far less busy from the 6 Nov. 

In 10 years when HS2 and Old Oak Common Stn are functioning Paddington will be even less busy, most people from the West who want to go into the West End, The City, Dockland, even to St Pancras will change at OOC onto The Elzabeth Line
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5316


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2022, 13:18:09 »

The original extract includes this oddity:
“From Ealing, the line would run to West Drayton and on to Reading, much as the Crossrail/Elizabeth Line does now…”  Huh
But if writing about the history, shouldn’t it really be “much as the GWR (Great Western Railway) has done since it opened? 

Is Crossrail to the railway like the Premier League is to football, in terms of ignoring what went before?  Huh

Paul
Logged
Mark A
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1302


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2022, 15:18:48 »

Most long distance passengers business or leisure, want to travel to or from central London. Not Reading.

Paddington's out in the fields. The service that until nine months ago took people from Bristol to the City of London on one ticket was a through service and ticket from Bristol to London Terminals ticket via Salisbury, as the ticket was inclusive of travel via Waterloo East and London Bridge to Blackfriars or Cannon Street - and the latter is certainly in the city of London. Can't work out if Blackfriars is in the City, as it's 'in' the Thames.

Mark
Logged
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18894



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2022, 16:37:48 »

Of course Paddington is necessary.

He brings joy and smiles to many children. And adults too.
Logged

"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

- Sir Terry Pratchett.
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4356


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2022, 20:58:24 »

Of course Paddington is necessary.

He brings joy and smiles to many children. And adults too.

.............. and Marmalade sandwiches  Grin

The original extract includes this oddity:
“From Ealing, the line would run to West Drayton and on to Reading, much as the Crossrail/Elizabeth Line does now…”  Huh
But if writing about the history, shouldn’t it really be “much as the GWR (Great Western Railway) has done since it opened? 

Is Crossrail to the railway like the Premier League is to football, in terms of ignoring what went before?  Huh

Paul

When Brunel designed Paddington Station (the current on and not the original one) his intention was to have a near flat access to the 'Metropolitain Railway' the Met the GWR were an early partner in the Met line, to give them access to the City.

If you look at the levels even today the Lawn is lower than the surrounding streets and the (now) Circle line platforms are not much lower than the Lawn.

Crossrail is only a modern and expensive version of what the GWR and indeed the BR (British Rail(ways)) WR were doing up to the mid 1960's, through trains from the GWR Relief lines via platforms 13 and 16 (originally the H&C line used 14 and 15) so that the GWR could access its sidings under Smithfield Market, there were also passenger services at one time to Liverpool St

Indeed where Crossrail portals are now part of the land had the DN Relief which ran through Royal Oak station
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
eightonedee
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1532



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2022, 22:58:49 »

Quote
In 10 years when HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) and Old Oak Common Stn are functioning Paddington will be even less busy, most people from the West who want to go into the West End, The City, Dockland, even to St Pancras will change at OOC (Old Oak Common (depot)) onto The Elizabeth Line

This may not be the worse thing in the world! I am not sure what the position is now, post covid, but when I was still working before lockdown I was concerned by the number of times I arrived at Paddington at peak morning time to find  access to the Underground closed due to overcrowding.

If there is a whole new set of choices as to how someone can get to various onward central London destinations from the west, via Reading, Old Oak or from various LT lines at Paddington, perhaps this will no longer be necessary?
Logged
CyclingSid
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1918


Hockley viaduct


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2022, 08:48:05 »

How many MPs (Member of Parliament) "commute" through Paddington?
Logged
froome
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 901


View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2022, 09:35:47 »

Where people want to go in London is a wide variety of locations. Many (but certainly not all) want to reach locations in the central area, but that itself covers a wide area stretching from Park Lane in the west to Tower Bridge in the east. So no terminus is going to be in an ideal location.

Personally I'm quite happy with Paddington being where it is, as it allows me to cycle through Hyde Park and other parks to reach many central locations. It certainly isn't convenient for eastern destinations, but as has already been hinted at, the best way to give most people a chance to get close to their final destination is to have more than one route to London allowing a choice of destinations, e.g. Waterloo for the eastern side, and to have good access to onwards journeys into central London, which Paddington to a degree does give.
Logged
Mark A
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1302


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2022, 11:47:52 »

Personally I'm quite happy with Paddington being where it is, as it allows me to cycle through Hyde Park and other parks to reach many central locations.

+1 to this: Paddington to various destinations between it and the river (and beyond) is very walkable and offers the benefit of crossing Hyde Park and/or the other one on the way. Even a quick paddle in the refreshing but goose-infested Westbourne aka Serpentine.

Mark
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page