Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 21:15 28 Mar 2024
* Bus plunges off South Africa bridge, killing 45
- Easter getaways hit by travel disruption
- Where Baltimore bridge investigation goes now
- How do I renew my UK passport and what is the 10-year rule?
- Family anger at sentence on fatal crash driver, 19
- Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
28th Mar (1988)
Woman found murdered on Orpington to London train (*)

Train RunningCancelled
18:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
18:36 London Paddington to Plymouth
19:33 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill
19:35 Exeter St Davids to London Paddington
19:59 Gatwick Airport to Reading
20:29 Gatwick Airport to Reading
20:54 Reading to Gatwick Airport
20:56 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington
21:16 Bedwyn to Newbury
21:30 Shalford to Reading
21:53 Newbury to Bedwyn
22:25 Bedwyn to Newbury
22:30 Gatwick Airport to Reading
22:47 Newbury to Bedwyn
Short Run
16:03 London Paddington to Penzance
17:03 London Paddington to Penzance
17:30 London Paddington to Taunton
17:36 London Paddington to Plymouth
18:03 London Paddington to Penzance
19:04 Paignton to London Paddington
20:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
20:11 Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads
20:42 Bedwyn to London Paddington
21:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
23:04 Reading to Bedwyn
23:17 Bedwyn to Reading
Delayed
16:15 Penzance to London Paddington
Additional 17:26 Castle Cary to Penzance
19:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
21:30 Gatwick Airport to Reading
23:45 London Paddington to Penzance
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 28, 2024, 21:22:27 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[104] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[103] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[78] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[56] If not HS2 to Manchester, how will traffic be carried?
[41] Return of the BRUTE?
[25] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: SouthEastern to scrap first class entirely as just 28 annual ticket holders left  (Read 1097 times)
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« on: October 01, 2022, 17:08:06 »

From MyLondon

Quote
SouthEastern is making some bold changes to respond to the changes in 'post-Covid' travel across its London, East Sussex and Kent network. As well as making substantial changes to its timetable which will see most trains retimed and many re-routed, it is taking steps to improve the overall passenger experience. Notably, it is scrapping first class to make four million extra seats per year available to standard class ticket holders.

Just 28 annual season ticket holders currently pay for first class tickets on Southeastern services, meaning there are dozens of empty seats on each Southeastern train which has first class. The train operator has already removed first class on its South East London 'Metro' services and its high-speed Javelin trains which run to and from St Pancras and Stratford do not have any first class seating.

SouthEastern, like most public transport operators across the capital, has seen a collapse in the number of regular commuters on peak services. Whilst some continue to still travel at the height of the Monday to Friday peak and pay for first class, more are choosing to commute either midweek-only or go into the office for part of the working day. Passenger demand is now hovering between 60 and 70 per cent of pre-pandemic levels on average across its network. At weekday peak times, this is just 56 per cent.

The routes in London affected by this change are Victoria-Ramsgate/Dover Priory, Victoria-Maidstone East/Ashford, Charing Cross-Ramsgate/Dover Priory and Charing Cross-Hastings/Ore. On these routes, there will also be some important timetable changes from December 11 and some trains will be lengthened or shortened to better utilise resources. c2c, Elizabeth line and London Overground are London's other train operators which do not have first class.

In addition to the declassification of first class on all trains, SouthEastern will also start rolling out e-ticket readers on its ticket barriers and smartcard ticket holders will start to be offered automatic delay repay. Some of SouthEastern's trains will also be refurbished in addition to the continued introduction of 'City Beam' trains across South East London routes.

Scott Brightwell, Operations and Safety Director for SouthEastern, said: “The way we all travel has changed post-pandemic, and many of our customers are now using our services differently and at varying times of the day. This new and improved timetable delivers a more consistent all-day service and means we’re providing trains, and space, where it’s needed most - which reflects the way people now travel. As we continue to recover from the pandemic, our focus remains on providing the most convenient and reliable railway for everyone who uses it."
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2022, 23:40:29 »

This is called progress. Reduce both the quality and quantity of first class  accommodation, and then when use declines remove it.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Timmer
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6293


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2022, 07:16:51 »

This is called progress. Reduce both the quality and quantity of first class  accommodation, and then when use declines remove it.

Exactly. First class on Southeastern, and for that matter Southern, is a complete joke. Same seat as standard class with an antimacassar the only difference between the two. I predict Southern will be next but maybe retain it on the London to Brighton line as I suspect there’s still demand there.

Greater Anglia scrapped first class on all lines bar London to Norwich and even that isn’t anything to write home about.

SWR» (South Western Railway - about) have dumbed down first class on their class long distance 444s. Though to be fair, they did to this in order to retain the same number of first class seats in each set after Dft demanded more standard seats.

Talk was the same fate was to happen to first class on the 158s and 159s but nothing appears to have happened with just standard having a refresh with the original comfortable and spacious first class seating retained. I suspect the pandemic saved this from happening.

Bucking the trend in the decline of first class is state run Transport for Wales who are reintroducing it on long distance services between Swansea and Manchester. Who’d have thought that would happen. Couple this with MK4 rolling stock operating on this line and there you really do have a decent first class product.
Logged
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5316


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2022, 11:23:02 »

Removal of first class completely on Southeastern services was first proposed by DfT» (Department for Transport - about) before their last planned franchise change, in around 2017, well before the recent changes to travel patterns.

Here’s an article about it in the Guardian at the time:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/15/southeastern-commuters-would-scrapping-first-class-improve-things

Then the ITT (Invitation to Tender) in Dec 2017 explicitly stated first class was to be removed from all services, but that franchise competition eventually hit the buffers, with a short extension and eventually OLR takeover. So I assume the relevant change went on the furthest back burner.

Just shows how long the decision making process actually is, and now they can blame conditions in late 2022 for a decision effectively made well over 5 years ago.

Paul
« Last Edit: October 02, 2022, 12:53:11 by paul7575 » Logged
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10095


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2022, 11:54:14 »

Also worth noting is that their 'premium' route using Class 395 Javelin's to and from St. Pancras International has always been standard class only since the trains were introduced 13 years ago.
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2022, 17:08:46 »

I find myself wondering if the "end of first class" headline is actually a stalking horse and the big message should be "there will also be some important timetable changes from December 11". 

I used to commute to (from Petts Wood) out to Sevenoaks around 1970 and standing on Sevenoaks station at 17:30 to 19:00, there was a steady stream of 12 car trains from Cannon Street and Charing Cross heading southbound and on to Hastings, Ramsgate and Dover.  Many of these trains had two trips a day - into London in the morning peak, parked during the day at Blackfriars and in the platforms at Cannon Street (electric), and at Grove Park (diesel units), then back out in the evening.  I know much or most of that is gone, and I wonder what the "important timetable changes" will bring - perhaps Tonbridge to Hastings and Ore reduced to a shuttle, and Ashford via Canterbury to Ramsgate also.   Sadly, I would put nothing past the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) - why, sadly, they might even look at removing thought London trains to Bradford-on-Avon and Trowbridge ...
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5316


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2022, 17:40:04 »

I find myself wondering if the "end of first class" headline is actually a stalking horse and the big message should be "there will also be some important timetable changes from December 11". 

I used to commute to (from Petts Wood) out to Sevenoaks around 1970 and standing on Sevenoaks station at 17:30 to 19:00, there was a steady stream of 12 car trains from Cannon Street and Charing Cross heading southbound and on to Hastings, Ramsgate and Dover.  Many of these trains had two trips a day - into London in the morning peak, parked during the day at Blackfriars and in the platforms at Cannon Street (electric), and at Grove Park (diesel units), then back out in the evening.  I know much or most of that is gone, and I wonder what the "important timetable changes" will bring - perhaps Tonbridge to Hastings and Ore reduced to a shuttle, and Ashford via Canterbury to Ramsgate also.   Sadly, I would put nothing past the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) - why, sadly, they might even look at removing thought London trains to Bradford-on-Avon and Trowbridge ...

The associated timetable changes are known, they’re all listed in Southeastern’s detailed announcement:

https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/travel-information/live-travel-information/december-timetables

Logged
Mark A
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1302


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2022, 09:34:05 »

Running off peak and weekend Bexleyheath line trains into Cannon Street instead of Charing Cross hasn't gone down well.

Mark
Logged
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4356


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2022, 10:24:28 »

Running off peak and weekend Bexleyheath line trains into Cannon Street instead of Charing Cross hasn't gone down well.

Mark

Makes sense, as this will save the flat cross over of Bexleyheath services at the North end of Lewisham station, reduces the number of potential conflicting moves and should generally improve the reliability of all services Lewisham is a real bottle neck at times.

The main inconveniences for Bexleyheath line passengers are if they want to get to Waterloo (via East) or the access to the Westend
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
CyclingSid
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1918


Hockley viaduct


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2022, 06:57:16 »

And is it Southern who have done away with toilets in some of their stock?

Sounds like an appealing area to go on holiday, or a Friday/Saturday night out.
Logged
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4356


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2022, 07:04:47 »

And is it Southern who have done away with toilets in some of their stock?

Sounds like an appealing area to go on holiday, or a Friday/Saturday night out.

It is DfT» (Department for Transport - about) policy for "metro" services not to have toilets
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
Mark A
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1302


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2022, 11:14:29 »


Makes sense, as this will save the flat cross over of Bexleyheath services at the North end of Lewisham station, reduces the number of potential conflicting moves and should generally improve the reliability of all services Lewisham is a real bottle neck at times.

The main inconveniences for Bexleyheath line passengers are if they want to get to Waterloo (via East) or the access to the Westend

If the pressure on the junction needs to be relieved, would it improve things if the four trains an hour that present themselves from Woolwich / Bexleyheath and heading for Charing Cross be halved rather than ceasing them?

From way out west, where we no longer have this sort of intensity of railways, it's difficult to picture all those junctions and routes.

Ah, a map.

https://cartometro.com/cartes/metro-tram-london/?r=cmf

Mark
Logged
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4356


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2022, 12:41:09 »


Makes sense, as this will save the flat cross over of Bexleyheath services at the North end of Lewisham station, reduces the number of potential conflicting moves and should generally improve the reliability of all services Lewisham is a real bottle neck at times.

The main inconveniences for Bexleyheath line passengers are if they want to get to Waterloo (via East) or the access to the Westend

If the pressure on the junction needs to be relieved, would it improve things if the four trains an hour that present themselves from Woolwich / Bexleyheath and heading for Charing Cross be halved rather than ceasing them?

From way out west, where we no longer have this sort of intensity of railways, it's difficult to picture all those junctions and routes.

Ah, a map.

https://cartometro.com/cartes/metro-tram-london/?r=cmf

Mark

There are also services to / from Victoria via Nunhead that cross over to plat 3 & 4 at Lewisham also quite a lot of freight make similar movements, so by making the Bexleyheath trains into Cannon St terminators it takes quite a bit of pressure off also London Bridge is where most passengers disembark to catch other services (Thameslink, Tube etc)
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2022, 13:50:18 »

And is it Southern who have done away with toilets in some of their stock?

Sounds like an appealing area to go on holiday, or a Friday/Saturday night out.

More progress.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page