The hidden time penalty of flying

[whole diary]

[grahame]

I can arrive at the station 5 minutes before my train is due to leave, and make it comfortably provided I already have my ticket.

I can arrive at a bus stop 5 minutes before my bus is shown to be there in the timetable (or rather less if it's a timing point)

I was scheduled to spend just under 60 minutes at Holyhead (by the booking system) last week on my way to Ireland; the train was just over 20 minutes late, and all the passengers on the train for the boat made it through in comfort.

I am asked to be at the airport 150 minutes before my flight leaves on Saturday

The airport may be busier than usual and we recommend that you arrive at BRS^▸ (Business Rates Supplement) airport 2.5 hours before your flight time, when bag drop opens. Please don’t arrive earlier than the bag drop opening time as this may cause congestion at the airport.

I find myself looking at check in times and find myself in wonder at why more people don't travel on the surface.  For a 14:25 flight, I'm recommended to arrive at the airport at 11:55.  The A4 bus from Bath is going to be at 10:00, then, arriving Bristol Airport at 11:16 ... and that's the 08:52 bus from outside our place into Bath at 09:31.   So at the bus stop at 08:47

[ChrisB]

How far coukd you get by surface travel in 6 hours (you forgot to mention the hidden time at te arrival end, so I conservatly added another 30 minutes to your 5.5 hours)?!! Oly fly if you have to….

[grahame]

How far coukd you get by surface travel in 6 hours (you forgot to mention the hidden time at te arrival end, so I conservatly added another 30 minutes to your 5.5 hours)?!! Oly fly if you have to….

Indeed, and your 30 minutes IS conservative - plane landing to final destination in that time would be unusual. I remember doing a survey and asking someone who was headed for a flight how he would get from the airport at the far end to his final destination.   "Oh - I'll walk" he said ... and it turns out his Mum lives 400 metres from the terminal on Benbecula!

You also need to add the flight time itself.

I will characterise my Saturday flight as being a long one.  It will total 11 hours door to door, versus 34 hours door to door quoted by train, which is why I have exceptionally decided to fly - my first flight in what must be four or five years (when I had to get back from Dublin overnight after running a course, and the fast ferry was cancelled).  The 34 hours does include station to home / hotel time (as does the flight estimate of airport transfers) and it also includes some 5 hours making six intermediate changes.  One of the trains is a sleeper with a seating option.

Flying, for most people, clearly wins for this journey / 4 hour plus flight.   Reduce the flight to 1 hour 30 (for a nearer destination, not for Concorde) and surface starts to make sense.

[IndustryInsider]

I can arrive at the station 5 minutes before my train is due to leave, and make it comfortably provided I already have my ticket.

I am asked to be at the airport 150 minutes before my flight leaves on Saturday

If you’re travelling by Eurostar you are requested to get to St.Pancras 90 minutes before departure time.

I’m all for when rail compares favourably against air, as it often does, but you need to compare apples with apples, and I think that’s a much fairer comparison.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Indeed. Although I caught the redeye Eurostar a couple of weeks ago (the 06.00 to Paris) and the "gates" weren't opened until just before 05.00 anyway - I could have done with a bit of extra sleep...

[grahame]

I can arrive at the station 5 minutes before my train is due to leave, and make it comfortably provided I already have my ticket.

I am asked to be at the airport 150 minutes before my flight leaves on Saturday

If you’re travelling by Eurostar you are requested to get to St.Pancras 90 minutes before departure time.

I’m all for when rail compares favourably against air, as it often does, but you need to compare apples with apples, and I think that’s a much fairer comparison.

Indeed - and my international 34 hours DOES include Eurostar checkin time.   Domestic / Great Britain there are no long checkin times; International there are, so there are really two sets of comparisons.

[Bmblbzzz]

Are the check in times for Eurostar purely because it crosses a border? I've been on international trains between various European countries and there was no advance check-in requirement; border controls were carried out on the train by various agents who boarded and moved along from carriage to carriage. And that's been the same both at relatively inconsequential borders and ones where security was definitely 'hard' including luggage searches for everyone. So I conclude the check-in requirement for Eurostar is either due to security concerns because it's a tunnel, or more likely because border formalities are delegated to the train operator rather than on-site staff who would also carry out controls on other trains.

[grahame]

Are the check in times for Eurostar purely because it crosses a border?

I don't think so - I have been on a three different international ferries (as well as Eurostar) in the last few weeks, checking times from 40 minutes to an hour before the ship sails, and that time included the bus transfer onto the ship.

I wonder if Eurostar ask for a long time so that people arrive in a more even flow rather than peaking at the end of checkin.   That way, although the queues may be develop they can get away with fewer agents and facilities, and save money.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Yes, but I don't think it's solely about saving money - it's simply that they don't have the space for greater throughput. Both St Pancras and Gare du Nord are quite space-constrained, and Brexit has increased the pressure on that space. It's the same reason they're not handling oversized luggage (including bikes) at the moment.

“Border checks for Eurostar between the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) and the continent take slightly longer due to the requirement to manually wet stamp UK passports,” a spokesperson explained, “and so we are asking customers to leave more time to check-in.”

[...]

The company foresaw Brexit would create problems. In a submission to the House of Lords in November 2016, Eurostar raised concerns about the government’s insistence on leaving the customs union. “New customs obligations would be very difficult to put in place in the restricted space available in stations,” it warned.

“Eurostar operates out of highly capacity-constrained stations in each of its principal locations,” the company added. “These are listed buildings in city centres and cannot be re-modelled without significant investments and years of planning. There is no capacity at these locations to remodel the use of space.”

https://www.euronews.com/travel/2022/07/29/why-are-there-long-eurostar-queues-at-st-pancras-operators-brexit-fears-are-being-realised

And:

Eurostar’s peak capacity at London St Pancras station is down 30 per cent as a result of post-Brexit checks.
Chief executive Jacques Damas said that additional checks caused a “significant increase in processing times,” therefore reducing the number of people processed at peak times. [...]

According to Damas, post-Brexit checks have added 15 seconds per passenger, forcing the train operator to process a maximum of 1,500 passengers per hour at peak times – down from 2,200 in 2019.

“It is only the fact that Eurostar has capacity-limited trains and significantly reduced its timetable from 2019 levels, that we are not seeing daily queues in the centre of London similar to those experienced in the Channel ports,” the outgoing chief executive said.
 

https://www.cityam.com/post-brexit-eurostar-capacity-down-30-per-cent-due-to-more-border-checks/

[Bmblbzzz]

Every other border I've crossed by train, unless it's a Schengen one where nothing is checked, one of two things happens:

Either the train stops at a border station where immigration and customs agents get on, proceed from carriage to carriage stamping visas, rummaging through luggage, collecting forms, poking spaces and asking questions;

Or the staff board at a station before the border, then do their stuff while train trundles slowly to a station on the other side of the border.

None of those journeys between border stations is as long as the time spent in the tunnel, so it would surely be possible for this procedure to be followed on Eurostar. But I expect it would require more passport and customs staff.

[Worcester_Passenger]

A few weeks ago, we travelled from Budapest to Munich on an Austrian RailJet. Hungary, Austria and Germany are all members of Schengen.

Despite this, a team of Austrian border police worked their way through the train as we left Budapest, looking for people travelling without papers. Same check happened after we'd crossed out of Austria - we stopped at Freilassing to allow the German border police to board the train, and again at Traunstein to let them get off.

[Bmblbzzz]

It can be done!

[Robin Summerhill]

The subject line for this thread reads “The hidden time penalty of flying” and I will address that aspect.

Pro-rail, pro-road and pro-air travel often highlight their opponents’ key weaknesses and minimising their own. But the matter is more complicated than that, because every single journey has its own particular circumstances. In short, it all depends where you want to go, when you want to go, how long you have to do it, and any ancillary cost that will be incurred on certain options.

For example, if your starting point is a stone’s throw from Euston and your destination is a stone’s throw from Glasgow Central, then rail would normally be the better option, but probably not if you want to get out and back in a day. But if your starting point in Hounslow and your destination is Paisley, this would tip the balance considerably

Notwithstanding Eurostar, crossing water usually gives air travel the upper hand in transit time. As mentioned above, Eurostar too has a check-in period, and getting to St Pancras can be an issue from many parts of the country – at least London’s major airports are close to motorways.

People wanting to go on a traditional seaside holiday to the south of France or Spain may feel they are wasting part of their holiday time off bt going overland; those on a leisurely sightseeing journey may enjoy the sights to be seen as much as the destination. Thse factors will also come in to pa
Play a part.

Finally, Graham said he was told to be at the airport 2.5 hours before the flight, but this of course was a recommendation and not an instruction. I am positive that getting the next bus an hour later would have been perfectly OK. When you know Graham  please tell us how long did it actually take you from entering the airport to being airside beyond security?