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Author Topic: The end of coal  (Read 13631 times)
TonyK
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« Reply #120 on: July 16, 2021, 08:18:40 am »

Here's a thought why not use the sites for geothermal,after all there's a fair amount of water already present ,and a good deal of the drilling has been done for you,I'm thinking something along the lines of what's happening at the Eden Project in Cornwall.

The heat in the "hot rocks" being exploited in Cornwall is found in granite. Coal is formed by peat being compressed by sediments, so the ground is much softer and a lot cooler. The temperature of the water in an abandoned coal mine is around 16°C. Although warm enough to be of benefit in a heating system, because warming water from 16°C to 50°C takes a lot less energy than starting at 4°C, you can't make electricity directly from it. In the hot granite in Cornwall, the temperature of the water is around 180°C. The steam can be used directly to power turbines, or through heat exchangers to heat water to above boiling point. The cooler waste water can be fed to zonal heating systems, as is proposed in Cornwall, or pumped back underground to heat up again.

The heat in the hot rocks comes mainly from radioactive decay. The Cornish hot water contains much higher concentrations of Thorium than are found elsewhere, although not sufficiently high as to be harmful in normal circumstances. I believe the drilling has found aquifers, but "dry" rocks can be exploited by pumping water into boreholes at sufficient pressure to form cracks.

Don't say it too loudly - this is nuclear energy, that could be exploited on a much wider scale by fracking.
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johnneyw
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« Reply #121 on: November 04, 2021, 09:04:21 pm »

Government confirms that the environment bill will not apply to steam trains. 

According to Railadvent it's not just steam locomotives but heritage engines in general.

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2021/11/government-confirms-environment-bill-will-not-apply-to-steam-locomotives.html

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broadgage
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« Reply #122 on: November 05, 2021, 01:22:34 am »

Good.
I am opposed to large scale coal burning for power generation, and the UK (United Kingdom) has ALREADY greatly reduced coal burning in power stations.

I would support limited coal burning for heritage or historical purposes. Since this is ungreen, I would hope that heritage railways and other heritage coal users would be as green as possible in other respects.


























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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #123 on: November 05, 2021, 07:58:09 am »

But once the heat pump is in you get far more heating (or cooling, depending which way it's running at the time) than the amount of power put into the pump. If you can run that pump off PV or wind or whatever's green at the time, you get more heat for your kilowatt than using that electricity directly for heating.

Yes correct.  A near surface ground source heat pump (without any significant geothermal energy) used for domestic heating typically has a Coefficient of Performance (COP) of 4 which means that it will typically produce 4 times more heat than the electricity put in. The amount of electricity required depends on the temperature increase you require so if there is some geothermal energy it would increase the COP but increasing the output temperature will decrease the COP. 

The COP of an air source heat pump is typically 3. 
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TonyK
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« Reply #124 on: November 05, 2021, 12:34:35 pm »


Yes correct.  A near surface ground source heat pump (without any significant geothermal energy) used for domestic heating typically has a Coefficient of Performance (COP) of 4 which means that it will typically produce 4 times more heat than the electricity put in. The amount of electricity required depends on the temperature increase you require so if there is some geothermal energy it would increase the COP but increasing the output temperature will decrease the COP. 

The COP of an air source heat pump is typically 3. 

A family member is about to start building a house, and looking into the different options. He has the luxury of a blank canvas within a field. It seems ground source is better, but more expensive - is this right?
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PhilWakely
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« Reply #125 on: November 05, 2021, 12:39:12 pm »


Yes correct.  A near surface ground source heat pump (without any significant geothermal energy) used for domestic heating typically has a Coefficient of Performance (COP) of 4 which means that it will typically produce 4 times more heat than the electricity put in. The amount of electricity required depends on the temperature increase you require so if there is some geothermal energy it would increase the COP but increasing the output temperature will decrease the COP. 

The COP of an air source heat pump is typically 3. 

A family member is about to start building a house, and looking into the different options. He has the luxury of a blank canvas within a field. It seems ground source is better, but more expensive - is this right?

A ground source installation is somewhat more complicated, requiring pipes to be buried underground. See here
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ellendune
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« Reply #126 on: November 05, 2021, 02:24:05 pm »


Yes correct.  A near surface ground source heat pump (without any significant geothermal energy) used for domestic heating typically has a Coefficient of Performance (COP) of 4 which means that it will typically produce 4 times more heat than the electricity put in. The amount of electricity required depends on the temperature increase you require so if there is some geothermal energy it would increase the COP but increasing the output temperature will decrease the COP. 

The COP of an air source heat pump is typically 3. 

A family member is about to start building a house, and looking into the different options. He has the luxury of a blank canvas within a field. It seems ground source is better, but more expensive - is this right?

A ground source installation is somewhat more complicated, requiring pipes to be buried underground. See here

Yes and it will normally require a more space than the average garden for the pipes.  More suited to a rural location than a town.  Unless you want to go for a borehole in which case it is even more complicated. 
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broadgage
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« Reply #127 on: November 05, 2021, 02:32:44 pm »

For a new house, I would favour great thermal mass and excellent insulation, together with MVHR. Such a house will need no heating in average winter weather, and only a very little heating in severe weather.
This very small heating demand is affordably met from direct electric heating.

In such a home I would install a small solid fuel stove, unlikely to be much used, but most useful to have in case electricity becomes unavailable for an extended period.

Grid tied PV to reduce electricity bills.
A small battery charging PV system to supply limited emergency power in case mains electricity becomes unavailable for an extended time.

Cooking all electric normally, but perhaps a small LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas) hob in addition, with gas bottles in a safe external store.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TonyK
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« Reply #128 on: November 06, 2021, 12:23:18 am »

A ground source installation is somewhat more complicated, requiring pipes to be buried underground. See here

Yes and it will normally require a more space than the average garden for the pipes.  More suited to a rural location than a town.  Unless you want to go for a borehole in which case it is even more complicated. 

Thank you both - interesting reading material. Definitely rural, and a borehole will be in place for water. That means that some drilling kit will be in situ, which could cut the cost a fair bit. The installation within the house will be the same, so I think I will look at the difference in cost versus difference in running costs. My role does not extend to decision making, but such information as is around tends to be either too generic or aimed at a particular answer.
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broadgage
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« Reply #129 on: November 06, 2021, 05:16:36 am »

The advantage of substantial thermal mass and extreme insulation, is that there is very little to go wrong.
Heat pumps are expensive to buy, may need costly repairs and consume significant electricity.

An extremely well insulated home will need NO heating in average winter weather, and only a little heating in severe weather.

MVHR adds complexity, but not as bad as a heat pump, and reduces energy use still further.


A super insulated home is immune to SHORT power cuts, it should remain comfortable for a few hours, and tolerable for up to 24 hours.
I therefore recommend a small solid fuel stove in case of any prolonged power outage. This should see very little use and is not the main heat source. It could however save your life if the power goes out for a week or more in a severe winter.

For similar reasons I would recommend  a small battery charging PV system, not worthwhile in strict financial terms, but could be most important in an emergency. A single 300 watt PV module and a couple of 12 volt deep cycle batteries would serve. That would provide for limited essential lighting, and low power portable electronics in an emergency.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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