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Author Topic: Reform of ticketing – not just a moan, but some suggestions for change to ponder  (Read 2051 times)
eightonedee
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« on: February 05, 2023, 20:04:54 »

With apologies to Chris B, who has just started a thread ( http://www.passenger.chat/27160 ) prompted by the article in today’s Sunday Telegraph, I also saw this and it prompted me to think about this. In particular there are two issues that cause concern, namely that simply abolishing return tickets does little to address the real issues regarding the complexity of ticketing and fares, and a move to abolish paper tickets is a barrier to travel that is unjustified.

I have posted about the second of these issues before, but rather than have another rant about it, here are some constructive suggestions for members to consider, too. Feel free to point out the shortcomings of what I proposed below, or point out points that undermine the suggestions I make, which I appreciate may be obvious to those with more knowledge than I have. I also appreciate that some may involve IT enhancements, and I have no expertise to know how expensive or difficult they are to achieve. If you do, please speak (or post) up!

Here goes!

1 -  Simplification of fares, and return fares

My problem with this is that I am reasonably certain that most passengers want to get “there and back” in a day. All that abolishing return fares does is mean that they will have two transactions rather than one. It does nothing to address all the anomalies and complications in the current fare structure. Unless it is proposed that any “new” single fare is half the current equivalent return, it is not difficult to see this being a cover for an increase in fares, possibly a considerable one. I am aware that it looks anomalous that a single is often (usually?) a few pence cheaper than a return fare, so why not abolish the single? To develop this idea, these are my thoughts on what we could do instead-

A – All tickets to become valid for all travel between the named starting and destination for a specified period – say 24 hours from the start date and time that you specify when buying. You can break as many times as you like, or travel back and forth more than once, as long as you finish by the expiry time. If you cannot finish in the period due to breakdown/cancellation etc., no penalty can be applied.  In many ways I am proposing that the basic ticket is a daily season ticket.

B – If peak times are still to apply, it will simply be determined by the start time of the ticket. So if it starts (say) between 6-30 and 9 am it will be peak, otherwise standard rates apply. Thereafter no restrictions on use in the permitted area.

C – There should be no penalty for not travelling the whole route, so (for example) if there is a cheaper fare between King’s Cross and Newcastle than to Durham, it can be used for a return to Durham freely. It will be up to those who set the fare to ensure such anomalies do not occur. Similarly if the TOC (Train Operating Company) or GBR (Great British Railways) offers a special deal (say Paddington to Bristol for £10), it can be used for a part journey (say to Swindon) without penalty.

D – In general as far as possible route restrictions should be removed, so that (for example) anyone wanting to travel between Birmingham and Southampton should be able to travel via Reading, Bristol, or Cheltenham/Swindon/Westbury/Salisbury at the same price on the same ticket.
The permitted routes should be shown on any electronic ticket and printed automatically when it is printed. I would suggest this be in a simplified map form, but I appreciate that many do not relate to maps readily, so a list of permitted routes or intermediate principal stations and possible changing points might be preferable.

E – If anyone does want to return more than 24 hours after the starting time, an extension can be paid for when buying the ticket, so that another journey can be made terminating at the starting station or one en route (e.g – someone getting back to Goring can terminate at Reading if there’s a lift available there) without penalty on a specified later date, such later date being capable of being changed by modest payment if plans changed.

F – Seat reservations – all trains to have a minimum of 20% unreserved seats. On trains where seat reservations are available or recommended, a warning should be generated at the point of purchase when (say) 75% of reserved seats are sold, to give an opportunity to book one. All reservations should be on payment of a standard (i.e. same amount throughout the system for any reservation) modest sum. A priority IT project should be clearing reservations when there are “no shows” – with any display clearing automatically if the seat has not been filled on departure from the next station after it started – perhaps using the QR (QR Code - Quick Response code) code to “book in” on the seat when you get on.

2 – The form of the ticket – why hard copies should be retained, and how the form of tickets should be developed.

As I have posted before, there is an important point of principle here. If we move to more electronic ticketing, hard copies should always be available. If not, the implication is that everyone will need a smartphone to use a train or a home computer. This is wrong. A mobile phone is a device enabling the user to speak to others by phone, communicate by email, text or other social media, and browse the internet. There is no reason anyone should have to have one (and subscribe to a data supply) simply to travel by train, any more than (for example) they should be required to buy an electric kettle, microwave oven or TV set to do so. Those who do not want one, or cannot afford one or would rather spend their meagre resources on feeding, clothing and housing their families should no more be deprived of the ability to travel by train, than they should be deprived of the ability to see their GP, shop at Tescos or buy fish and chips.

I assume that QR codes are now favoured as they can carry more data than the old fashioned magnetic strips (if not, then we have moved backwards in adopting them – however experience just before lockdown in Belgium and the Netherlands seems to indicate that they are well able to take their place).

The problem we seem to have currently is that we have a mixture of systems that involve tapping in (like the Oyster (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) cards), scanning QRs and feeding tickets through gate readers. Get it wrong, and there’s a risk of penalties for the innocent and unwary without an encyclopaedic knowledge of the systems.  We seem to have moved backwards from the situation we had some years ago when a card with a magnetic strip literally seemed to open all the gates to rail travel.

So I suggest –

A – An early move to the use of QR codes for all public rail transport (National Rail/GBR and London Transport).

B – Paper tickets still be the default issue at ticket offices, ticket machines and other outlets (see below), preferably still in the current credit card sized format. It is a design masterpiece, durable (OK – some have problems with the text fading on long-term season tickets), a convenient size and readily recyclable. The QR code can easily be printed on it, and modern scanners should be able to cope with this or any home printed code easily. I reckon you could readily print all the information that is needed for the ticket to be checked on-board (starting point and destination, starting time & date, class) on the same side, as I expect all TM(resolve)’s will be issued with scanners that will breakdown frequently, and where there is permitted route information this could be printed on the reverse.  Maximum flexibility – use an image on your phone, print at home or buy it on a paper ticket.

C – Sell train tickets in advance from Post Offices and convenience stores. We have had National Lottery terminals selling lottery tickets for nearly 30 years and IT has made huge advances since. Surely it cannot be too difficult to devise a network of rail ticket terminals that operates in a similar way – perhaps combining it with the sale of other services as well?

What do others think? As you may gather, I am deeply unimpressed with the lack of vision shown by the current proposals.

edit to add link to the article referred to on another thread - grahame
  
 
« Last Edit: February 06, 2023, 02:58:36 by grahame » Logged
bobm
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2023, 20:07:51 »

The issue I have with mobile ticketing, and I know I’ve said it before, is it’s no good if you are the railway expert in the family and buy tickets for others who aren’t so savvy. 
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Ralph Ayres
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2023, 22:24:28 »

Pondering away...

- I'd say "there and back" in a day is really only a relatively local thing, though faster trains do make longer days out possible. Most longer journeys are likely to involve an overnight stay.
- All tickets being effectively one day seasons would make it virtually impossible to stop multiple use by different people, whether passed on to an acquaintance or sold on by a tout. That's a lot of income lost to the railways. You could always make all tickets electronic I suppose and not transferable from one device to another, but see bobm's comment...
- Peak times do need to vary. Penzance to Plymouth off-peak after 09:30 is fine, but that means you won't be able to reach Edinburgh on an off-peak ticket until mid-evening. Plenty of stations are also busy only in one direction, and could allow off-peak fares if going the other way.
- The whole business of routes charged hasn't been reviewed since privatisation when it was defined in haste in the absence of anything previously other than the phrase "any reasonable route" and a bit of common sense. It needs addressing but will be a huge task with many losers who currently benefit for their particular journey.
- Higher fares for just part of the journey are sometimes simply an error or oversight (and on occasion TOC (Train Operating Company) fare setters have been told not to correct them as it would have wider implications), but they're often done for marketing reasons and the chances are the deal will just not be offered rather than being widened. The headline-grabbing cases of people being penaltyed for getting off a stop early have now pretty much stopped with common sense being applied.
- I do agree that seat reservations are becoming a problem. The real irony is that those who buy a ticket at the time of travel and so pay the most are least likely to get a seat.
- I don't see the system (tap in, QR (QR Code - Quick Response code) code, paper ticket or whatever) as the main source of penalties. From what I've seen it's more an issue of buying something that ties you to something specific such as a certain train time/journey but not quite realising the implications of deviating from that. That's a problem with the fare structure not the ticket medium, but the current system with relatively affordable train-specific Advance tickets does allow train operators to spread the load across their services.  More flexible tickets would tend to lead to busier trains getting even more crowded.  It perhaps didn't matter back say in the 1970s when rail travel was rather in the doldrums with a surplus of trains.
- Wilko have just withdrawn from selling National Lottery tickets because "it would require a significant investment" which is an indication of how enthusiastic retailers might be about selling rail tickets. Any terminal would need to be operated by the customer (can't see retailers wanting their staff spending time acting as travel agents when someone else is waiting to pay quickly for stuff with a higher markup) which is then basically just a box getting in the way which might be better placed at a railway station.  If it does other things as well then it needs to tap in to different security systems and just gets more expensive with more to go wrong.
- Agree fully re lack of vision, but are you surprised? That's politics for you. A fancy new patriotic name (while being careful not to reuse the perfectly good former one) and a competition for a new headquarters are apparently seen as more important.

Tain't simple!  Need a lie down now.
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Bob_Blakey
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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2023, 11:54:32 »

With a significant risk of repeating opinions I have posted here, and elsewhere, previously my views on GB (Great Britain) rail ticketing are as follows:

The system should be based entirely upon Single Distance Related Fares (SDRF) so that passengers pay the same cost/mile for every journey, which should reflect to a large extent the actual cost of providing the service (with whatever overall reduction would be required to ensure that rail travel is not rendered prohibitively expensive). A variation to this rule should be included where a journey could be made using more than one class of train e.g. EXD» (Exeter St Davids - next trains)>NTA» (Newton Abbott - next trains) where both 'InterCity' and 'Local' services are available.

(NB. When I first proposed this I was advised that there were some instances where ticket prices would increase significantly and therefore upset some passengers. If this is true then the rail industry will just have to deal with the complaints and apologise for making a mess of it in the first place. The greater good and all that.)

There would probably have to be a conversation over how journey distances are calculated to avoid unfairly penalising passengers who are forced to 'double-back' when making some journeys (e.g. when an 'InterCity' train does not call at a station where it would be reasonably expected to so do - I seem to recall Worcester & Birmingham being mentioned in such a scenario). This might also have to include the issue of journey distances increased by either obvious gaps in the GB rail network (reopen Okehampton<>Bere Alston NOW!) or the vagaries of geography e.g. TAU» (Taunton - next trains)>CDF» (Cardiff - next trains) (where the actual distance travelled could be significantly reduced by re-electing BJ and getting him to authorise the construction of a bridge across the Bristol Channel!  Grin).

DRFs eliminate the requirement for the nonsense that is split ticketing and also stops any arguments about whether a break of journey is permitted or not.

DRFs also sort out most of the issues surrounding Permitted Routes because the system should be designed to offer the quickest journey by default but also provide, on request, details of alternative reasonable but slower, and therefore probably more expensive, routes.

I am entirely ambivalent about whether Return tickets are retained; they could be viewed as another unnecessary complication of the ticketing system but I am sure that many passengers still use them. If retained a Return ticket should always be twice the price of the equivalent Single DRF - no more of the lunacy that is Returns only costing a few pence more than the Single.

DRFs would allow 'Peak Hour' surcharges to be significantly rationalised e.g. an early morning journey from the South West on the route to London Paddington could be set with a higher cost/mile tariff only between, say, NBY» (Newbury - next trains) & PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains). I rather take the view however that, post-pandemic, these surcharges could be abolished completely - the cost of rail service provision does not vary with TOD.

Unless the RDG(resolve)/TOCs (Train Operating Company) can provide a cast iron justification for their retention Advance tickets should be abolished; if the powers-that-be really think earlier collection of ticket revenue outweighs the obvious overall loss of revenue I would love to see their workings. If it can be justified configure the ticketing system to make automatic across-the-board price adjustments a set number of days prior to departure dates but don't issue a separate ticket type.

I have always been of the opinion that train seat reservations should be properly managed such that if a reservation is made it becomes mandatory for the passenger(s) to travel in the specified seats on the selected service. There would of course be an option to cancel reservations up to 90(?) minutes prior to the service departure from it's originating station. Essentially the travelling public have to be educated into the habit of only making reservations when they are 100% certain that they will travel on the selected service (illness, etc permitting). On busy services passengers occupying booked seats for which they do not hold the reservation should be instructed to move by the Train Manager if a polite request from the reservation holder doesn't do the trick. I am still convinced that a few selected services should reservation-only'.

There are far too many Railcards attached to the GB rail system. If the RDG get the pricing model right quite a few of them could be binned.
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2023, 13:10:37 »

I think the question with returns is not whether they should be valid for 24 hours or more, but whether you should pay more for coming back a week later than the same day. Or even vice versa.

Similarly with advance tickets.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2023, 15:40:22 »

With apologies to Chris B, who has just started a thread ( http://www.passenger.chat/27160 ) prompted by the article in today’s Sunday Telegraph, I also saw this and it prompted me to think about this.

'Tis a shame you didn't copy 'n paste your comprehensive missive after my post & keep this all in one thread - there are now two threads dealing with this same issue, and quite difficult to merge them now. Maybe this thread for *everything* a ticketing policy should have, and the other for what is right/wrong with the likely proposal being made tomorrow - i.e. JUST single tickets only, no returns.

My comments on yours....

Quote
1 -  Simplification of fares, and return fares

A – All tickets to become valid for all travel between the named starting and destination for a specified period – say 24 hours from the start date and time that you specify when buying. You can break as many times as you like, or travel back and forth more than once, as long as you finish by the expiry time. If you cannot finish in the period due to breakdown/cancellation etc., no penalty can be applied.  In many ways I am proposing that the basic ticket is a daily season ticket.

Singles are already valid (within their time restriction) all day, and I think some are valid for the following two days from day of issue. Agree with breaks of journey as often as you like, but you must keep going towards your destination. No 'rover' usage, for the reasons Ralph Ayres gives above. You buy again. Tickets are valid for early morning completion the following day if breakdown/cancellation of late services happens currently & no further changes needed.

Quote
B – If peak times are still to apply, it will simply be determined by the start time of the ticket. So if it starts (say) between 6-30 and 9 am it will be peak, otherwise standard rates apply. Thereafter no restrictions on use in the permitted area.

Agreed, but I can see need for a peak PM period in certain journeys, for which a peak single would be needed. There is scope for all peak periods to be equal though - no starting peaks say at 1530. A discussion is needed re peak journeys & distance to be travelled: SW - Scotland (& vice versa) for example, shouldn't need any peak.

BUT no breaks of journey! Otherwise the need for a peak becomes necessary. You can't mix & match otherwise people will take full advantage. So maybe breaks only allowed on medium to short journeys where journey can still be completed within the same day? it's a difficult one that....

Quote
C – There should be no penalty for not travelling the whole route, so (for example) if there is a cheaper fare between King’s Cross and Newcastle than to Durham, it can be used for a return to Durham freely. It will be up to those who set the fare to ensure such anomalies do not occur. Similarly if the TOC (Train Operating Company) or GBR (Great British Railways) offers a special deal (say Paddington to Bristol for £10), it can be used for a part journey (say to Swindon) without penalty.

Errr, no. special offers are just that. They are offered everywhere, in all sorts of trades, and can have whatever conditions they choose. Or ban special offers because operators won't want them with no conditions anyway. but I agree with the first bit unbolded.

Quote
D – In general as far as possible route restrictions should be removed, so that (for example) anyone wanting to travel between Birmingham and Southampton should be able to travel via Reading, Bristol, or Cheltenham/Swindon/Westbury/Salisbury at the same price on the same ticket.
The permitted routes should be shown on any electronic ticket and printed automatically when it is printed. I would suggest this be in a simplified map form, but I appreciate that many do not relate to maps readily, so a list of permitted routes or intermediate principal stations and possible changing points might be preferable.

Again, SW - Scotland (for example) - what routes do you include? Pretty much the whole network? needs further work.

Quote
E – If anyone does want to return more than 24 hours after the starting time, an extension can be paid for when buying the ticket, so that another journey can be made terminating at the starting station or one en route (e.g – someone getting back to Goring can terminate at Reading if there’s a lift available there) without penalty on a specified later date, such later date being capable of being changed by modest payment if plans changed.

Surely a further single ticket is the answer bought when you know when/where to is all that is needed?

Quote
F – Seat reservations – all trains to have a minimum of 20% unreserved seats.
- yes, absolutely

Quote
On trains where seat reservations are available or recommended, a warning should be generated at the point of purchase when (say) 75% of reserved seats are sold, to give an opportunity to book one. All reservations should be on payment of a standard (i.e. same amount throughout the system for any reservation) modest sum.
Unworkable frankly. I thought we were trying to simplify?

Quote
A priority IT project should be clearing reservations when there are “no shows” – with any display clearing automatically if the seat has not been filled on departure from the next station after it started – perhaps using the QR (QR Code - Quick Response code) code to “book in” on the seat when you get on.
Yes, far more likely! Good call.

Quote
2 – The form of the ticket – why hard copies should be retained, and how the form of tickets should be developed.

As I have posted before, there is an important point of principle here. If we move to more electronic ticketing, hard copies should always be available.

Can't disagree - until airlines stop, why should rail?

The problem we seem to have currently is that we have a mixture of systems that involve tapping in (like the Oyster (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) cards), scanning QRs and feeding tickets through gate readers. Get it wrong, and there’s a risk of penalties for the innocent and unwary without an encyclopaedic knowledge of the systems.  We seem to have moved backwards from the situation we had some years ago when a card with a magnetic strip literally seemed to open all the gates to rail travel.[/quote]

But you want paper tickets as well as e- & m-tickets.....they all have to be read/checked. so your ideas are partly causing this problem to continue. Just a thought.

Quote
B – Paper tickets still be the default issue at ticket offices, ticket machines and other outlets (see below), preferably still in the current credit card sized format. It is a design masterpiece, durable (OK – some have problems with the text fading on long-term season tickets), a convenient size and readily recyclable. The QR code can easily be printed on it, and modern scanners should be able to cope with this or any home printed code easily. I reckon you could readily print all the information that is needed for the ticket to be checked on-board (starting point and destination, starting time & date, class) on the same side, as I expect all TM(resolve)’s will be issued with scanners that will breakdown frequently, and where there is permitted route information this could be printed on the reverse.  Maximum flexibility – use an image on your phone, print at home or buy it on a paper ticket.

You miss the actual problem - that the passenger can read the details, so the routings, and all the current info is STILL required to be available to the traveller. On the paper ticket too if retained. It isn't solving a problem?

Quote
C – Sell train tickets in advance from Post Offices and convenience stores. We have had National Lottery terminals selling lottery tickets for nearly 30 years and IT has made huge advances since. Surely it cannot be too difficult to devise a network of rail ticket terminals that operates in a similar way – perhaps combining it with the sale of other services as well?

agree with comments already made above. Along with the point made elsewhere that sellers are well genned up to be able to *advise* travellers on best/cheapest fares. No - can you buy an air ticket in these places? Top up Oyster-style pay-as-you-go...yep, more places the better.

With a significant risk of repeating opinions I have posted here, and elsewhere, previously my views on GB (Great Britain) rail ticketing are as follows:

The system should be based entirely upon Single Distance Related Fares (SDRF) so that passengers pay the same cost/mile for every journey, which should reflect to a large extent the actual cost of providing the service (with whatever overall reduction would be required to ensure that rail travel is not rendered prohibitively expensive).

You are either going to make tickets stupidly cheap in the South (of Manchester, say) or stupidly expensive north thereof. Median wages across the country differ hugely, which is why the current disparity exists.

Quote
DRFs eliminate the requirement for the nonsense that is split ticketing and also stops any arguments about whether a break of journey is permitted or not.

With the proviso that there is no doubling back, and journeys have to be completed within a certain timescale, then breaks ought to be permitted at all times, and as often as needs be. I often need to feed noticeboards along a line & I do break my journey many times. This should be the norm. If singles were valid three days, then you could take three days to get there, as long as no doubling back. It doesn't matter if a break is one hour or 24, really.

Quote
DRFs also sort out most of the issues surrounding Permitted Routes because the system should be designed to offer the quickest journey by default but also provide, on request, details of alternative reasonable but slower, and therefore probably more expensive, routes.

Not sure what problems surrounding Permitted Routes you are referring to that are solved in this way? Priced by the Mile has its advantages (you pay the same fare per mile, on the same/similar trains across the board. Really fair  Roll Eyes

Permitted Routes are another kettle of fish frankly - and need a complete overhaul.

But yes, whichever route you want to take, pay by the mile travelled. Simple. How that is measured & your ticket issued? Hmmm.

Quote
I am entirely ambivalent about whether Return tickets are retained; they could be viewed as another unnecessary complication of the ticketing system but I am sure that many passengers still use them. If retained a Return ticket should always be twice the price of the equivalent Single DRF - no more of the lunacy that is Returns only costing a few pence more than the Single.
Yes that is the proposal, with the single being half the price of *current* returns - so generally cheaper or the same as now.

Quote
Unless the RDG(resolve)/TOCs can provide a cast iron justification for their retention Advance tickets should be abolished; if the powers-that-be really think earlier collection of ticket revenue outweighs the obvious overall loss of revenue I would love to see their workings. If it can be justified configure the ticketing system to make automatic across-the-board price adjustments a set number of days prior to departure dates but don't issue a separate ticket type.

You could certainly offer a discount for buying your flexible ticket in advance (say 30% off if bought t-12, reducing the discount by say 5% per week until you pay 100% of the flexible single fare at t-5? % figures can be more/less, this just an example)

BUT there is good reason that Advance, non-flex fares are worth keeping & that is the same reason they were invented - to fill otherwise empty seats on particular services & by offering a large discount, persuade those that are happy to travel on that particular service to do so. This hasn't changed - there are still empty seats (on different services these days) that need filling - generally weekdays (Monday pm - Friday am only, in the middle of the other days) where cleverly-priced Advances are working.

Quote
I have always been of the opinion that train seat reservations should be properly managed such that if a reservation is made it becomes mandatory for the passenger(s) to travel in the specified seats on the selected service. There would of course be an option to cancel reservations up to 90(?) minutes prior to the service departure from it's originating station. Essentially the travelling public have to be educated into the habit of only making reservations when they are 100% certain that they will travel on the selected service (illness, etc permitting). On busy services passengers occupying booked seats for which they do not hold the reservation should be instructed to move by the Train Manager if a polite request from the reservation holder doesn't do the trick. I am still convinced that a few selected services should reservation-only'.

Again, complicating the reservation system. You are aloud just one reservation per journey, made at time of booking for Advances, and at any time up to 90mins before departure on flexible tickets - but once all reservable seats are booked, tough luck on that service, try another. But I agree with whoever said 20% minimum should be unreservable, so that those without a reservation get a chance of a seat. And that the guard can cancel those seats not taken up.

Quote
There are far too many Railcards attached to the GB rail system. If the RDG get the pricing model right quite a few of them could be binned.

Micro-areas (eg Dales Railcard, Cotswold Railcard) serve a very valid reason. Statutory ones (eg Disabled) ditto. But yes, there are some that might go.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2023, 16:31:09 »

Moving on to consider the actual policy about to be announced....

The new single fare to be half of the *current* return, according to David Horne @ LNER» (London North Eastern Railway - about) - and per the trial they ran a year or so back. So the new single will be cheaper (where the current return is a few pence/ponds more than current single), or the same as now (where the return now is already 2xsingle fare)

CHEAP DAY RETURNS - However, what happens when there is both a monthly return (old 'saver' & 'supersaver' fares, for example) AND CDRs (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))? My understanding is that there'll only be ONE single fare for any particular time of day, probably half the return at current times of day) So goodbye the CDR. that'll hurt in certain areas.

CDRs were also *designed* to be a few pence/pound or so more expensive than a single to encourage those to go shopping etc. There's a good reason for them in local journeys.

RAILCARD MINIMUM FARES - what happens going forward? Is the minimum fare going to be halved for single purchases? There can be times currently where a return can be cheaper with this type of railcard than a single, if the single is lower than the minimum fare (say £12) but the return is currently more (say £18) - so the return w/Railcard is the same price as the single (both £12), but applicable to each ticket going forward, no discount allowed as both singles would be £12 and under the minimum fare.

DELAY REPAY - At the moment, you can get a full refund on your *return* ticket if your train is very very late (I think over 2 hours?). Under the new regime, this won't be possible as both journeys will be treated separately. Maybe this is one way they'll be making up the loss on making single tickets half price of the current return, where the return is currently just more than the single.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2023, 16:44:52 »

oooh, three-in-a-row - is this permitted? Huh Roll Eyes

From the Guardian, via MSN

Quote
Return tickets will be scrapped and new digital ticketing introduced under reforms of the British rail system expected to be announced this week.

The two-way tickets, which currently offer a discounted rate, will be replaced by “single-leg pricing” which will mean that the price of two singles will be the same as the current return fare, according to the Telegraph. The idea was trialled by London North East Railway (LNER» (London North Eastern Railway - about)) in 2020.

The new fares are expected be revealed by the transport secretary, Mark Harper, in a speech on Tuesday in which he is set to outline plans for "Great British Railways” (GBR (Great British Railways)), a new public body that will bring the operation of track and trains under the same roof and oversee timetables and ticketing.

Harper is expected to raise the prospect of better use of technology, as well as the new pricing strategy, to simplify the rail ticketing system, potentially leading to the use of smartcards, similar to London’s Oyster (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) Card system, across the UK (United Kingdom).

The idea was first unveiled by Boris Johnson and Grant Shapps in May 2021, but has yet to be realised amid turmoil in government and Conservative party fears of “nationalisation by the backdoor”.

t was first proposed by Keith Williams, the ex-chief executive of British Airways and chairman of Royal Mail, who envisaged a “guiding mind” for the industry that he likened to the “Fat Controller” – the character from Thomas the Tank Engine children’s books.

His review of the rail systemcame after the 2018 timetable debacle that sparked chaos and cancellations Williams judged that fares were a mess, costs too high, the industry fragmented, and the objectives of Network Rail, which oversees tracks, and operators, who handle trains, were opposed rather than unified.

He also found that the current franchise system was not fit for purpose. With Southeastern, Northern and LNER now run by the government’s own operator of last resort, an overhaul has almost been completed by default.

The new effort to drive change comes as the government faces criticisms for its failure to resolve months of strikes on the railways that have affected commuters and leisure travellers alike.

Inflation, and the pay battles that has triggered, have meanwhile compounded the financial battering from Covid, which hit an already struggling system. Changes in commuting as a result of the shift to working from home have left operators with a £2bn annual fares shortfall.

The collapse in passenger revenue has all but ended franchising. Emergency contracts for train operators have kept the industry afloat, but critics say a more long-term solution is required.

And The Independent

Quote
Return train fares are to be scrapped in a planned shake-up of Britain’s rail system, expected to be announced by Rishi Sunak’s transport secretary within days.

Mark Harper will reportedly unveil plans this week to replace return fares with “single-leg pricing”, in which the price of two single tickets will be equal to a return.

He is also expected to commit to creating Great British Railways (GBR), a new public body which will seize responsibility for ticketing and timetabling from the Department of Transport and place the operation of tracks and trains in the same hands for the first time.

The idea was first unveiled by Boris Johnson and his transport secretary Grant Shapps in May 2021 but has since failed to materialise, amid fears among Tory MPs (Member of Parliament) that it amounted to “nationalisation through the back door”.

It was first proposed by ex-British Airways boss Keith Williams, during a lengthy “root and branch” review of the railways ordered by ministers after the 2018 timetable fiasco, which subjected millions of passengers to cancellations and delays when radical new schedules were rapidly introduced.

Mr Williams suggested creating a body to serve as a “guiding mind” for the industry with oversight of the entire system, which he compared to the Fat Controller from Thomas the Tank Engine.

Such a move would be “key for regaining public trust”, he said in 2019, telling the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page): “Someone needs to be accountable to the public.”

Mr Williams will be in attendance during Mr Harper’s speech on Tuesday night at Westminster, according to the Sunday Telegraph, which first reported the details of the expected reforms.

Mr Harper is also expected to hint at the greater use of ticketing technology – a signal that paper tickets could soon be scrapped in favour of QR (QR Code - Quick Response code) codes and smartcards, the paper reported.

Rail fares in England are set to increase by 5.9 per cent from 5 March, despite the ongoing series of strikes, cancellations and delays as ministers fail to strike a deal on pay, jobs, conditions and pensions with unions.
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eightonedee
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2023, 18:42:04 »

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'Tis a shame you didn't copy 'n paste your comprehensive missive after my post & keep this all in one thread - there are now two threads dealing with this same issue, and quite difficult to merge them now. Maybe this thread for *everything* a ticketing policy should have, and the other for what is right/wrong with the likely proposal being made tomorrow - i.e. JUST single tickets only, no returns.

I did give this some careful thought. As this was a wider issue I decided it merited a new thread, albeit appreciated that there was some overlap - also thought that the overall subject matter sat better in "The Wider Picture in the UK (United Kingdom)" than "All Across the Great Western territory" - and I did apologise publicly! 
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2023, 20:49:11 »

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'Tis a shame you didn't copy 'n paste your comprehensive missive after my post & keep this all in one thread - there are now two threads dealing with this same issue, and quite difficult to merge them now. Maybe this thread for *everything* a ticketing policy should have, and the other for what is right/wrong with the likely proposal being made tomorrow - i.e. JUST single tickets only, no returns.

I did give this some careful thought. As this was a wider issue I decided it merited a new thread, albeit appreciated that there was some overlap - also thought that the overall subject matter sat better in "The Wider Picture in the UK (United Kingdom)" than "All Across the Great Western territory" - and I did apologise publicly! 

I agree the separate threads- looked at merging and decided against
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2023, 20:51:24 »

Once the Ministsr makes his statement, I suspect both threads will start discussing it….
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2023, 07:20:57 »

Selling tickets from Post Offices and convenience stores is a good idea for customers especially given the likely upcoming mass ticket office closures - POs tend to be somewhere where those less comfortable with e-tickets/TVMs (Ticket Vending Machine) etc (for example pensioners) are likely to shop.

Bruvver Mick et al may have something to say about it though.............
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2023, 07:40:04 »

Selling tickets from Post Offices and convenience stores is a good idea for customers especially given the likely upcoming mass ticket office closures - POs tend to be somewhere where those less comfortable with e-tickets/TVMs (Ticket Vending Machine) etc (for example pensioners) are likely to shop.

Bruvver Mick et al may have something to say about it though.............

Back in the later 1960s, after the town's station and branch line had closed, I was able to buy advance tickets for journeys from Honiton to London (and no doubt many other places) from a small shop in Sidmouth.

I can't recall why I did this, rather than buying tickets at Honiton on the day. I don't think that it was because this was cheaper, perhaps a matter of eliciting from the kindly and patient shop-owner what the train times were. (Surely I must be mis-remembering that the day-return fare was only two or three pounds?)

Perhaps at Tilehurst the coffee van parked next to the main station building could double as a ticket office?

Whatever, I can see there being a lot of confusion among us older, less IT-inclined, passengers, adapting to any new system, not to mention the occasional rail traveller.
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grahame
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2023, 08:23:07 »

Back in the later 1960s, after the town's station and branch line had closed, I was able to buy advance tickets for journeys from Honiton to London (and no doubt many other places) from a small shop in Sidmouth.

[snip]

Perhaps at Tilehurst the coffee van parked next to the main station building could double as a ticket office?

Selling tickets from Post Offices and convenience stores is a good idea for customers especially given the likely upcoming mass ticket office closures - POs tend to be somewhere where those less comfortable with e-tickets/TVMs (Ticket Vending Machine) etc (for example pensioners) are likely to shop.

Bruvver Mick et al may have something to say about it though.............

Makes huge logical sense - been done before in our neck of the woods too:



Looking very locally - Melksham - Would be lovely if the TransWilts CRP (Community Rail Partnership)'s station cafe (who have just received planning permission for an extension) could sell train tickets.
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2023, 09:21:25 »

Fully agree that tickets could be purchased in local outlets.
But.
No advice or guidance on routings, time of travel (or when not to) won't be known.
All the local knowledge of station ticket offices will be lost.
So potential for conflict with ticket checks, and barrier exits.
Melksham cafe could sell tickets, but won't be open for the first (few) trains of the day, so back to relying on the guard.
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