Here we go again - can we overcome this sort of issue?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0l841xeyklo

Here we go again -

'We were fined £50 each over £3 extra train fare'

And the headline is a couple who either have extreme cheek in pressing their case or have genuinely got it wrong and the system has not shown the discretion that it should.

Train ticket inspectors should treat deliberate fare dodgers differently to people who make genuine mistakes, the passenger watchdog has said.

Transport Focus said there was "an overwhelming need for reform" but the Rail Delivery Group, which represents train firms, said staff have discretion over individual circumstances.

Scores of people have contacted BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) News to say they felt ticket inspectors had been over-zealous in giving them penalty fares.

Alexandra Petri and her partner Ross Jones bought advance train tickets but ended up on the wrong train. When they tried to pay the difference in fares of £3 they each had to pay a penalty fare of £50.

"We felt like there was no understanding for small errors. We just paid the fine because I am not from the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) and didn't want to risk anything potentially going on my record that could cause trouble in the future," she added.

Of course, pedants will tell you they were not fined, but just charged a penalty fare. But it feels like a fine ...

Edit to correct spelling

[TaplowGreen]

Perhaps more discretion needs to be shown in these circumstances.................but I digress 

[RichardB]

If you buy an advance purchase ticket for a specific train and you don't travel on that train through no fault of the railway, of course your ticket isn't valid at all and you need to buy a new one.  That's clearly what has happened here.

Personally I don't see why your ticket couldn't be excessed up to the appropriate walk up fare for the journey you are making.  That would at least mean your £50 or whatever it is isn't lost.

£3 sounds very small indeed for the difference between the £50 and the walk up fare.

[CyclingSid]

I sometimes worry when I get on at an unstaffed station and want an Excess, which I presume a ticket machine is incapable of providing.

If I can't locate the guard/train manager, I know I should be able to see him at the station but you would be surprised by the vanishing acts, how do I get the Excess ticket. The example I am thinking of changes crew during the journey, so I am in double jepordy, all for a NIL value Excess for this particular section of the journey. In my case it could £99 for £0.

[Bob_Blakey]

In this particular case I have absolutely no sympathy for the passengers involved because when one buys an Advance ticket it quite clearly states that it is generally only valid on one specific train for the majority of the journey being undertaken.

Momentarily entering 'broken record mode' it must be obvious to anybody with a modicum of common sense that a major simplification of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) fares system - my oft stated preference is for a base of Distance Related Fares - would significantly reduce such issues.

[JayMac]

In this partIcular case I have every sympathy for the passengers involved.

Getting on the wrong train is very easily done by anyone not completely au fait with rail travel and fares here in the the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

We are here, mostly, a clued up bunch when it comes to rail travel, fares, rules and regulations. We can't assume the wider public share the same savvy.

The 'punishment' should fit the 'crime'. Charge the excess when there's any doubt over the passenger's intention to evade the correct fare. The burden of proof, on the balance of probabilities, should be on the authority making the case that a fare was genuinely being evaded. Any doubt, dont 'fine'.


EDIT NOTE I've removed the duplicate post where I quoted myself. Not sure how I managed that.

[TaplowGreen]

In this partIcular case I have every sympathy for the passengers involved.

Getting on the wrong train is very easily done by anyone not completely au fait with rail travel and fares here in the the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

We are here, mostly, a clued up bunch when it comes to rail travel, fares, rules and regulations. We can't assume the wider public share the same savvy.

The 'punishment' should fit the 'crime'. Charge the excess when there's any doubt over the passenger's intention to evade the correct fare. The burden of proof, on the balance of probabilities, should be on the authority making the case that a fare was genuinely being evaded. Any doubt, dont 'fine'.

Hear, Hear!

[grahame]

In this partIcular case I have every sympathy for the passengers involved.

Getting on the wrong train is very easily done by anyone not completely au fait with rail travel and fares here in the the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

We are here, mostly, a clued up bunch when it comes to rail travel, fares, rules and regulations. We can't assume the wider public share the same savvy.

The 'punishment' should fit the 'crime'. Charge the excess when there's any doubt over the passenger's intention to evade the correct fare. The burden of proof, on the balance of probabilities, should be on the authority making the case that a fare was genuinely being evaded. Any doubt, dont 'fine'.

Totally agreed - I am reminded of this incident:

A few years back, on a Thursday, I was travelling from Filton Abbey Wood to Melksham (in the days of few trains, but there WAS one when I wanted it for once).  I queued at the kiosk at Filton and bought my £10 ticket ... yes, a quick check said "Filton Abbey Wood" and "Melksham", price seemed about right, and it was checked fine on my first train.

Ticket check on the Bristol to Chippenham train - and the train manager (I think) was not a happy chappie. Turned our my ticket had the letters "WUP" on it - weekend 1st upgrade - and wasn't a ticket at all.  He was all for charging me for another ticket, taking the view that I didn't have a valid ticket, and that it's the passenger's responsibility to make sure they've been sold the right ticket for the journey.   He made me feel really "small"; he made me feel stupid that I hadn't realised that the ticket was wrong.   He did say "I will let you off this time" when I asked why on earth a Weekend First Upgrade (which he explained to me it was) had been issued on a Thursday.  And he put the fear of God into me about the ticket check to come on the TransWilts train, saying I must buy a ticket for that leg at Chippenham because I was unticketed.

I decided I didn't want to pay First Great Western "again" at Chippenham, and took the bus to Melksham instead. Took to using the bus more and the train less for a time. And what a wonderful example / story of how things can go wrong that can frighten others.   What a sad decision by the train manager on the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) all because - it transpired - I had been sold the wrong thing at Filton and paid the railway 60p less (it transpired) than I should have paid.

I admit - in law - I was wrong. I had failed to ensure that I had a correct and valid ticket for my journey, and I'm aware that ignorance is no defence.

[paul7575]

If you buy an advance purchase ticket for a specific train and you don't travel on that train through no fault of the railway, of course your ticket isn't valid at all and you need to buy a new one.  That's clearly what has happened here.

Personally I don't see why your ticket couldn't be excessed up to the appropriate walk up fare for the journey you are making.  That would at least mean your £50 or whatever it is isn't lost.

£3 sounds very small indeed for the difference between the £50 and the walk up fare.

Excessing to the correct fare would have absolutely no deterrent value. Once people realised they could safely just buy the cheapest advance they could find, then why would they ever buy the correct fare again? How does a guard tell the difference between someone doing it accidentally once or intentionally every day?

If you were to allow for that single ‘mistaken’ incident, you then need a robust means of recording names and addresses.  Then wait for people arguing that they shouldn’t have to provide the info.

Paul

[RichardB]

If you buy an advance purchase ticket for a specific train and you don't travel on that train through no fault of the railway, of course your ticket isn't valid at all and you need to buy a new one.  That's clearly what has happened here.

Personally I don't see why your ticket couldn't be excessed up to the appropriate walk up fare for the journey you are making.  That would at least mean your £50 or whatever it is isn't lost.

£3 sounds very small indeed for the difference between the £50 and the walk up fare.

Excessing to the correct fare would have absolutely no deterrent value. Once people realised they could safely just buy the cheapest advance they could find, then why would they ever buy the correct fare again? How does a guard tell the difference between someone doing it accidentally once or intentionally every day?

If you were to allow for that single ‘mistaken’ incident, you then need a robust means of recording names and addresses.  Then wait for people arguing that they shouldn’t have to provide the info.

Paul

In the interests of being cuddly to passengers and not beating them round the head when they make a mistake or miss a train, I think it would be worth looking at.  People would simply be paying the walk up fare for the journey they are making as if they hadn't bought an advance purchase fare in the first place.

How many people would go to the trouble of buying an advance purchase fare in the hope of avoiding paying the excess, I don't know and no-one else does either.  Maybe it's worth a trial somewhere?
 

[TaplowGreen]

If you buy an advance purchase ticket for a specific train and you don't travel on that train through no fault of the railway, of course your ticket isn't valid at all and you need to buy a new one.  That's clearly what has happened here.

Personally I don't see why your ticket couldn't be excessed up to the appropriate walk up fare for the journey you are making.  That would at least mean your £50 or whatever it is isn't lost.

£3 sounds very small indeed for the difference between the £50 and the walk up fare.

Excessing to the correct fare would have absolutely no deterrent value. Once people realised they could safely just buy the cheapest advance they could find, then why would they ever buy the correct fare again? How does a guard tell the difference between someone doing it accidentally once or intentionally every day?

If you were to allow for that single ‘mistaken’ incident, you then need a robust means of recording names and addresses.  Then wait for people arguing that they shouldn’t have to provide the info.

Paul

I don't understand this apparent urge to punish people who have made a genuine mistake, and it's telling that the watchdog appears to suggest that the difference between deliberate evasion and genuine mistakes should be acknowledged.

One of the biggest challenges for the railway to address and overcome is the culture around the way it treats its customers and how they are regarded, and this would appear to be a good example.

[ChrisB]

Yup - and there's realistically an order in which to do this successfully - fare revision first?

[grahame]

Yup - and there's realistically an order in which to do this successfully - fare revision first?

Yes, I would agree. 

You have a system that is overcomplex and then you expect the public who are generally fairly bright but not educated in its complexity to understand it and be responsible for purchasing the correct ticket, with resulting errors of purchase.   At times, the people who will understand the systems (and not only the fares but how they are collected) the best are those who look to reduce what they pay through legitimate or illegitimate means, that made so much more possible (and mentally challenging) by the nooks and crannies in the system.

If you sort out the fares system you then have a system under which the scope for honest errors - and for dishonest  "errors" too is reduced.  Not an unadulterated joy - some of the legitimate bargains will be lost, and pervesly some of the revenue collected by the operators may be reduced because there should no longer be lots of charging more than necessary by booking systems and TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine).

[JayMac]

and pervesly some of the revenue collected by the operators may be reduced because there should no longer be lots of charging more than necessary by booking systems and TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine).

And revenue from penalty fares may be reduced too. I often wonder how much is gathered by the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) in PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare).

[Sixty3Closure]

The only time I got a penalty payment was on London Underground where I'd managed to buy the wrong ticket but one that was more expensive than the one I should have had. When I queried this - was it fare evasion when I'd overpaid the revenue collector ignored me and radioed for the police to attend as I was refusing to pay. Not the best experience so I have a lot of sympathy for people who make genuine mistakes.