4. Shortage of stock / crew, reliance on overtime / rest day working

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

4. Shortage of stock / crew, reliance on overtime / rest day working

The ongoing level of train service cancellations due to a shortage of staff appears to be largely due to a reliance on Overtime & Rest Day Working (RDW).
The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)» apparently refuses to allow the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company)▸ to employ sufficient staff to cover all turns in the published timetables with the available standard working contract resource.
Could the requirement for presumably higher pay rate Overtime & RDW be eliminated by TOCs employing additional staff to cover all booked turns at the standard pay rate and could such a change be cost neutral?

What steps are being taken to address the continuing shortage of train crew and rolling stock?

What representations are GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) senior management making/have made to DfT», and what plans/proposals have they presented by way of resolving the situation whereby particularly on Sundays, but increasingly on Saturdays, the service collapses due to crew shortages? If plans/proposals have been submitted, what responses have been received from DfT?

[GWRPA]

You may be aware that most of our high-speed drivers and some on board crew do not have Sunday in the working week, and therefore in common with rail operators across the country, we are reliant on volunteer overtime.

This is also one of the reasons why we run a reduced number of services on a Sunday too. In recent years, all new GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) drivers joining the business have a Sunday commitment, but it will take time or a change in terms and conditions before all drivers have that obligation.

It's welcome that ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) (the train drivers union) have accepted the Government’s offer of a pay deal, and this will bring to an end the industrial dispute that has been running since 2022.   The offer made by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) did not include any changes to terms and conditions.

On rolling stock we have DfT approval to discuss the potential to bring additional rolling stock into our fleet. Those discussions are taking place now and we hope to be able to give more detail on progress very soon.  This will increase resilience across our long distance, regional and local routes.

Longer term, the DfT have approved funding to allow us to set up a team to looking at the options for replacing our local and regional diesel fleets which are now some of the oldest trains in regular passenger use in Britain.  This offers the potential to introduce a new train that could operate on all our routes.  Our team are also looking at what infrastructure interventions would also be required to optimise use of any future fleet.

We did also step in and take on the trialling of Fast Track battery charging technology which is now being tested on our Greenford Branch.  This technology has the potential to transform battery train operation on branch lines in particular and we are proud of the role we are playing in the trials, which will be significant for the whole of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

[ChrisB]

What steps are being taken to address the continuing shortage of train crew

I don't see an answer to this question

[GWRPA]

What steps are being taken to address the continuing shortage of train crew

I don't see an answer to this question

I think Daryn covered off in his spoken remarks - it's not that there's a shortage of drivers and guards in the business, but rather terms and conditions - as well as, for example, training requirements, engineering works etc - mean we do not always have the number of colleagues available to run our full service, particularly on Sundays.

[eightonedee]

What about all those class 769s? Might they be back on the agenda, or have they been abandoned as an unsuccessful experiment?

[GWRPA]

Regarding conversation of last trains and disruption - our Passenger Charter is available here https://www.gwr.com/about-gwr/our-business/passengers-charter

[grahame]

Text I have typed from the recording of the Zoom session - please forgive typos.
DM - Daryn McCombe, GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)
TL - Thomas Lydon, GWR
GE - Graham Ellis
BC - Bryony Chetwode
CB - ChrisB

Question 4

DM: Looking for more stock in fleet and things underway to reduce most common problems in turbos and things like that. Crew is definitely a challenge. To be stark, we have far more drivers and guards in the business than we need to run the service. The challenge we have is to make sure that they have all the training they need. Every time we make a change to the railway we have to brief drivers on signalling layout.    Two broad issues with train crew - make sure they can do all of their training and then the second is around Sundays because Sundays are not inside the working week for our intercity drivers. In terms of Sunday's, every new driver into the business how has a commitment to work on Sundays and actually we do tend to see those who have a commitment coming in. ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) are as keen to enforce that agreement as we are so not an area where we are seeing a challenge however there are just under a third of our drivers who are still on the old high speed terms and conditions and they don;t have the commitment to work their Sundays. They are predominantly the drivers who sign the routes on the Intercity trains and sometimes we do have to move the drivers who have the relevant route and traction knowledge away from local services onto those intercity services.  I know that is not a popular decision, particularly where it does effect these local services but it's about making sure we get the right balance of services.  We are working with the government to see what we can do to encourage people to work on Sundays more and we will keep doing that and it's the same with our guards

BC: Reassuring to hear about drivers. I did hear a rumour that the backpay was allowing a few drivers to early retire and others to give up their Sunday overtime. So is it really as rosy as you paint it?  Very mean question - so sorry.

DM: If I have given the impression it's rosy - sorry - I didn't mean to. It isn't; there are still far too many cancellations. With the average driven receiving in the order of £12,000 before tax backpay over the next month or so obviously does disencentivise some people from working additional hours so yes that is a factor.  We hope that by paying it at this time in the year we have missed the challenge of high summer leave and hopeful it's far enough ahead of Christmas - those are our two big pinch points that bookend this part of the year and we're hoping that by paying in the middle of this section we'll actually smooth that out a little bit.  Yes, a challenge and expecting some people to retire, primarily in the Plymouth area.

TL: In answer to ChrisB on chat - to confirm it's not that we don't have the headcount but rather taking training, terms and conditions, etc, into account we have a challenge. Engineering works have an implication on this. We have a big block coming up at Westbury, and HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) and Old Oak Common so even when we have the headcount we don't always have the full compliment of crew. It's something we all want to fix, something the government wants to fix but probably, ultimatly, we probably need to see action from on high and that's where as we move into the world of public ownership we hope to see government take a more active role to resolve that.  It's worth noting that after the pandemic more and more people are travelling at the weekends as you'll see when you're out and about and if you want to keep people using the railway we do need to provide that service

DM: Worth noting that even on our very challenging Sundays, 2 or 3, even 4 available in each location would make quite a big difference. Whilst the whole problem is a big one, if you break it down to some of the local management issues we need to take, the problem becomes more manageable. That's what we're trying to do - actions and training plans in the relevant depots. On average a driver will be driving 2 or 3 trains in their working day which means that 1 or 2 extra available will save 6 or 7 cancellations.

GE: Where cancellations are successive cancellations, and on infrequent services, such as Melksham and Newquay it makes such a difference there.

DM: It does, and we do recognise that.  When you haven't got enough resources to run the plan you want to run, colleagues across the road in the control room have to make decisions as to how to deploy those resources and often (and this is probably right though I appreciate won't be popular) it has to be the area where it will have the least impact.  Does not mean it's not very impactful to the individuals who are being impacted because clearly it is, but what we want to do do is to minimise to the best of our ability the overall impact.  What we should be doing,m and I have spect 6 hours today with my duty managers, is making sure that the communication about that is clear, that we put the alternatives in place more quickly. So I agree with you Graham - it's never our want to cancel anything but where we do we need to be far better.

GE: A lot of it comes down to mitigation. If another one comes along in 20 minutes, people are happy. If it's 2 hours, or "we'll get you a taxi" which itself takes 2 hours to arrive, not good

DM: I don't think anyone would disagree with that Graham.  If you or anyone on the call do spot anything that's beyond normal disruption, do let us know because control are under a lot of pressure but there are times we've not put in the contingencies we should have done.

TL: We shouldn't wait until we have cancelled it before we start looking at the contingency measures. The team will be working as hard as possible to get the service running as planned and then we switch to [contingency]. And particularly if it's weather related, conditions on the road are often worse than on rail

GE: You are mighty more "forgiven" if it is weather related, even if it's the fact that Network Rail lowered the tracks and made them more likely to flood when they electrified. ("I didn't say that" / "I couldn't comment")

CB: Can you confirm that if you cancel the last train of the day you have a duty to get people home"

TL: Need to check the precise wording

BC: Think wording is to "get you to your destination station" because I had to do it the other day / Cross Country and Manchester Picadilly.

CB: Need something ideally on your web site we can point to when we approach a member of staff and ask for a taxi because you HAVE cancelled the last train back or what to do if there's no staff on the station because they've gone home already

DM: Should be on the web site but I will go snd look

TL: Just found it - Google Passenger Charter. Does not specifically reference last train of the say but "if we can't get you to your destination station by bus or taxi or by train then we will take you to the station that works best for you. If we can't do either of those things then we will find you somewhere to stay for the night to continue your journey the next day. We will aim to make bus / taxi / hotel arrangements for you however if you make them yourself we will pay costs providing they are reasonable and obviously we will need evidence and note that at the stations the help points are there to connect you through to the national contact centre. We have our social media team that is staffed until think 11 p.m.   So I'm not saying things never happen, but I think we do have lots of experience of dealing with these things when they do happen as you all know, and I thinks it's something we do a pretty good job of but we're always here

BC: CB - you can bring that up through the accessibility panels as well, across the board for all the operators because it's one of the things where at the moment the taxis can't deviate even if they pass your door they can't stop there. Bit of "damned if you do and damned if you don't" making sure the taxi drivers don't take you off somewhere and murder you

[grahame]

What steps are being taken to address the continuing shortage of train crew

I don't see an answer to this question

I think Daryn covered off in his spoken remarks - it's not that there's a shortage of drivers and guards in the business, but rather terms and conditions - as well as, for example, training requirements, engineering works etc - mean we do not always have the number of colleagues available to run our full service, particularly on Sundays.

"we do not always have the number of colleagues available to run our full service," and that applies again today.



Picking up just one or two of those:

17:35 Weymouth to Bristol Temple Meads due 20:14

17:35 Weymouth to Bristol Temple Meads due 20:14 will be cancelled.
This is due to a shortage of train crew.

19:01 Severn Beach to Frome due 20:48

19:01 Severn Beach to Frome due 20:48 will be started from Bristol Temple Meads.
It will no longer call at Severn Beach, St Andrews Road, Avonmouth, Portway Park And Ride, Shirehampton, Sea Mills, Clifton Down, Redland, Montpelier, Stapleton Road and Lawrence Hill.
This is due to a shortage of train crew.

[anthony215]

Maybe rail operators should look at hiring weekend only staff.

My employers started it just before covid  with the bus Industry short of drivers as well.as employing drivers who want to work 1 or 2 days per week. 

It's certainly helped I enjoy working weekends only gives me more family time in the week including doing school run, watching my daughters Christmas shows and sports day

[a-driver]

“To be stark, we have far more drivers and guards in the business than we need to run the service. The challenge we have is to make sure that they have all the training they need. Every time we make a change to the railway we have to brief drivers on signalling layout.   

It’s not so much an issue of training, what small issue there is is of their own making.   If you have far more drivers and guards in the business than they need to run the service then the problem is clearly one of poor diagramming.

In the days of HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), and I’ve said this before, a Paddington to Penzance service would generally utilise two drivers and two train managers with a change at Exeter or Plymouth. Today, there can be up to 6 drivers required for one service, crew changes regularly happening at Reading, Taunton, Exeter, Plymouth, Par and Truro.  When a crew member is relieved they don’t just get off one and onto another train, they’ll sit around for 20 or 30 minutes plus for their next working, and that may also be a short hop.  That’s extremely poor utilisation when a drivers maximum continuous driving is 4 hours.  Most of their crew will now tell you they spend more time travelling around then actual driving.
They’ve also removed route knowledge from some crews reducing flexibility and they’ve also moved work around often giving work to other depots that don’t even sign the traction or routes!  Thats where the training issue comes in. They’ve opened new depots and then struggled to find them work.  
Since the arrival of the IETS, sadly, GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) has lots its way and made a complete mess of diagramming.

As for Sundays. They’ve been here before.  Raised the RDW rate and not increased Sunday rate. The same happened back then.  Crew opted to work a RD during the week rather than a Sunday.
The issue with Sundays isn’t helped by the late startup of service, services start 08:00 which means if you work an 8 or 9 hour early turn you effectively lose a whole day.  Pick up an early weekend turn and turns start at around 05:00 which means you’ll be finished around lunchtime.  

[TaplowGreen]

“To be stark, we have far more drivers and guards in the business than we need to run the service. The challenge we have is to make sure that they have all the training they need. Every time we make a change to the railway we have to brief drivers on signalling layout.   

It’s not so much an issue of training, what small issue there is is of their own making.   If you have far more drivers and guards in the business than they need to run the service then the problem is clearly one of poor diagramming.

In the days of HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), and I’ve said this before, a Paddington to Penzance service would generally utilise two drivers and two train managers with a change at Exeter or Plymouth. Today, there can be up to 6 drivers required for one service, crew changes regularly happening at Reading, Taunton, Exeter, Plymouth, Par and Truro.  When a crew member is relieved they don’t just get off one and onto another train, they’ll sit around for 20 or 30 minutes plus for their next working, and that may also be a short hop.  That’s extremely poor utilisation when a drivers maximum continuous driving is 4 hours.  Most of their crew will now tell you they spend more time travelling around then actual driving.
They’ve also removed route knowledge from some crews reducing flexibility and they’ve also moved work around often giving work to other depots that don’t even sign the traction or routes!  Thats where the training issue comes in. They’ve opened new depots and then struggled to find them work.  
Since the arrival of the IETS, sadly, GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) has lots its way and made a complete mess of diagramming.

As for Sundays. They’ve been here before.  Raised the RDW rate and not increased Sunday rate. The same happened back then.  Crew opted to work a RD during the week rather than a Sunday.
The issue with Sundays isn’t helped by the late startup of service, services start 08:00 which means if you work an 8 or 9 hour early turn you effectively lose a whole day.  Pick up an early weekend turn and turns start at around 05:00 which means you’ll be finished around lunchtime.  

The diagramming situation you describe is farcical.

In respect of Sundays, it seems to have been an issue where the can has been kicked down the road endlessly, by GWR and others, but the only real solution is to recruit enough additional staff to bring it into the working week?

Drivers earning 70k+ simply don't need the overtime and clearly can't be compelled to do it in sufficient numbers, and in any case relying on overtime clearly isn't working and the situation is deteriorating.

Otherwise this ridiculous situation where you simply cannot rely on the railway on a Sunday (and increasingly Saturdays it would seem) will continue in perpetuity.

Perhaps for all their pretty words about GBR^▸ (Great British Railways)/nationalisation, the real challenge for this Government is to put their money where their mouth is in this context in order to make a real difference?

I guess the only alternative is to produce a timetable for Sundays which can reliably be run with the resources available and limit ticket sales to avoid the horrendous and dangerous overcrowding which we often see now.

[a-driver]

The diagramming situation you describe is farcical.

In respect of Sundays, it seems to have been an issue where the can has been kicked down the road endlessly, by GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) and others, but the only real solution is to recruit enough additional staff to bring it into the working week?

Drivers earning 70k+ simply don't need the overtime and clearly can't be compelled to do it in sufficient numbers, and in any case relying on overtime clearly isn't working and the situation is deteriorating.

Otherwise this ridiculous situation where you simply cannot rely on the railway on a Sunday (and increasingly Saturdays it would seem) will continue in perpetuity.

Perhaps for all their pretty words about GBR^▸ (Great British Railways)/nationalisation, the real challenge for this Government is to put their money where their mouth is in this context in order to make a real difference?

I guess the only alternative is to produce a timetable for Sundays which can reliably be run with the resources available and limit ticket sales to avoid the horrendous and dangerous overcrowding which we often see now.

I reckon if they tightened up the diagrams they wouldn’t be far short of staff to have Sunday’s included. It’s already been stated they have said they have more than they need to run the current timetable….. I expect Sunday’s might feature with next years pay deal. This years and the back pay is just the sweetener. Some already believe a deal has been struck which is why the offer was better than most expected.  There has to be a reason why the rate for Sundays was not increased at the same time.

You can pay drivers £170k a year and they’ll be those that will still do overtime! Thats not a railway thing either, many people will always live well beyond their means….. or they have dreams of early retirement!

[Timmer]

I guess the only alternative is to produce a timetable for Sundays which can reliably be run with the resources available and limit ticket sales to avoid the horrendous and dangerous overcrowding which we often see now.

Would make sense as it’s often the same trains either being cancelled or terminating at Exeter.

[eightonedee]

Thanks a-driver, for your explanation.

Do you know what was behind this change? Has GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) given a reason?

[broadgage]

It’s not so much an issue of training, what small issue there is is of their own making.   If you have far more drivers and guards in the business than they need to run the service then the problem is clearly one of poor diagramming.

In the days of HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), and I’ve said this before, a Paddington to Penzance service would generally utilise two drivers and two train managers with a change at Exeter or Plymouth. Today, there can be up to 6 drivers required for one service, crew changes regularly happening at Reading, Taunton, Exeter, Plymouth, Par and Truro.  When a crew member is relieved they don’t just get off one and onto another train, they’ll sit around for 20 or 30 minutes plus for their next working, and that may also be a short hop.  That’s extremely poor utilisation when a drivers maximum continuous driving is 4 hours.  Most of their crew will now tell you they spend more time travelling around then actual driving.
They’ve also removed route knowledge from some crews reducing flexibility and they’ve also moved work around often giving work to other depots that don’t even sign the traction or routes!  Thats where the training issue comes in. They’ve opened new depots and then struggled to find them work.  
Since the arrival of the IETS, sadly, GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) has lots its way and made a complete mess of diagramming.

As for Sundays. They’ve been here before.  Raised the RDW rate and not increased Sunday rate. The same happened back then.  Crew opted to work a RD during the week rather than a Sunday.
The issue with Sundays isn’t helped by the late startup of service, services start 08:00 which means if you work an 8 or 9 hour early turn you effectively lose a whole day.  Pick up an early weekend turn and turns start at around 05:00 which means you’ll be finished around lunchtime.  

Presuming that the above is accurate (and observing that the source is a long standing and well respected member, I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of the post) Then that suggests to me that First Group may be unfit to retain the franchise.