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Question: Can you expect new trains to be "as good"? Are they?  (Voting closed: October 13, 2024, 08:55:27)
Old trains were better - 10 (9.3%)
New trains are better - 6 (5.6%)
They are much the same - 5 (4.6%)
We have far greater expectations these days - 18 (16.7%)
We have a sentimentality for the old - 17 (15.7%)
We put up with a lot more - 8 (7.4%)
The whole system has changed and cannot be compared - 12 (11.1%)
New trains have too much to go wrong - 17 (15.7%)
The trains are good but how they are used could be improved - 12 (11.1%)
I wish we could try something radical (follow up to say what) - 3 (2.8%)
Total Voters: 31

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Author Topic: Comparing old and new trains  (Read 1380 times)
grahame
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« on: October 06, 2024, 08:55:27 »

You cant expect a new train to be as good as the old ones, in either water resistance or in passenger comfort.
This is called progress..

It depends how you defined "good".  Modern trains are more complex and there is far more to go wrong. With things that we wouldn't have had at all on a train in our youth.     I was writing up some stuff yesterday - out and about and I caught a dozen trains, all pretty much on time.   And the niggles and thinks that went wrong were things we didn't have in my youthful commuted from Petts Wood to Sydenham Hill, Sevenoaks, and Holborn Viaduct.  And, yes, Holborn Viaduct would no longer be available but actually Farringdon is closer and would have been better.

* On the train ... things I did not expect in my youth (and, yes, I often changed onto long distance trains):
Power; USB; Power doors; Air Conditioning; Heating; Loos; Tables ; Catering  Trolley; WiFi; Announcements; Cycle Spaces; Luggage Racks; CCTV (Closed Circuit Tele Vision); Level Access ; Destination Displays; Carpets; Blinds; Ticket Checks; Arm Rests; Coat Hooks; Seat Reservation Lights;
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broadgage
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« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2024, 10:09:42 »

In my view new trains in general, and IETs (Intercity Express Train) in particular are in many respects worse than the old ones..
Catering=old trains had a buffet, new trains do not. And the trolley service if it appears at all is a poor alternative.
Luggage space= old trains had more generous luggage space, with the power cars used also for peak holiday services.
Cycle spaces=too few and hard to use.
Surfboards=carried on old trains, prohibited on new trains.
Train length/capacity=5 car worse than 8 car, and yes I know that some trains are longer, but not reliably.
Seating comfort=Rather subjective, but generally considered worse.
Table seats=Comparable to a high density HST (High Speed Train), but much worse than an original HST with 64seats at 16 tables per coach in second class.
Reliability= seems subjectively much worse if judged by the number of short formations and cancellations, despite FGW (First Great Western) assuring us that really the new trains are more reliable.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2024, 11:55:36 by broadgage » Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
broadgage
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« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2024, 10:30:49 »

And considering new trains in general, and not IETs (Intercity Express Train).
I remember the old DC (Direct Current) slam door trains serving southeast London and Kent, being replaced by then new  networkers. The old trains were 8 car and I got a seat from my then local station of Nunhead into London. The new trains were 6 car in the rush hour and 4 car at other times. Old trains=seats, new trains=standing.
Reliability seemed to decline with 4 car trains even in rush hours.

Waterloo to Exeter, full length locomotive hauled trains replaced by 3 car DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit), overcrowding and standing for YEARS until eventually some services were lengthened.
Old trains had a buffet, new trains had a trolley, sometimes. Now further "improved" to nothing.
Old trains had a luggage van with ample space for cycles, new trains have very restricted cycle spaces.
Old trains had opening windows, new trains had most windows sealed and defective air conditioning. This was improved by a few more opening windows. A/C STILL does not work reliably after many years.

Virgin cross country as it was then known, replaced full length loco hauled trains and HSTs (High Speed Train) with 4 car and 5 car DMUs, too short and overcrowded from day one and now even worse.

« Last Edit: October 06, 2024, 10:38:59 by broadgage » Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Mark A
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« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2024, 11:34:13 »

***** On the train ... things I did not expect in my youth (and, yes, I often changed onto long distance trains):

OK, forgive me: I've used your list as a climbing frame for a memory-riff.


Power; Well... not to be found. But then, people didn't carry gadgets and railway carriage engineers found it a struggle even to provide electric lighting. And then, carriage cleaners... did they use a shore supply or perhaps none? I'm also imagining a never-implemented steampunk solution: steam taps in carriages for a variety of passenger uses. Potentially very useful and I wonder why that wasn't done. Ah, hang on...

USB; Science fiction. (And USB2 should have stayed that way...)

Power doors; A great rarity, but I think the much missed children's gallery at London's Science Museum had a demo, as well as various other user-activated marvels, who who encountered it would forget the untouchable ball mounted in the middle of a steel table?  *A huge advance in safety* as train doors really required passenger training before use as well as regular refresher courses to guard against complacency as the penalties in terms of injury could be horrendous. Also, see 'Luggage racks', below.

Air Conditioning; Much anticipated. There was at least one well-known prior example, but it could be said that air con arrived with the HST (High Speed Train) and that was a revelation. Air con. On a standard train in service. You bought a ticket, took yourself to the platform, and there was this ordinary train. For you. You climbed aboard, the carriage end door automatically opened and closed for you, and then, in the carriage, the double glazing's reduced noise levels, dry, ventilated, the feeling of being off on travels and insulated from the outside world. This was only around seven years after passengers on the last trains from Bath Green Park had walked to their train past the wafts of escaping steam-heat steam, settled into their seat, prudently closed any open windows as the entire carriage was shortly to be completely enveloped in smoke, steam, lasting condensation. Twice. No streaming videos then, the appearance of Lyncombe Vale, for passengers on the Somerset and Dorset there, was forever destined to be a mystery, obscured by streaming windows.

Heating; Patchy. The charms of steam heat in a diesel age. Poorly insulated carriages. The damp. And did anyone on the forum experience the freezing conditions plus that characteristic smell aboard many southern electric trains as they rolled into London suburban stations around 5:30 in the morning, or the much obscured views of Sussex from a fast train to Brighton or another climbing out of Folkestone some time before dawn, shoes setting off a firework display as they pulled amps out of the reluctant conductor rail well insulated by ice.

Loos; Put me in mind of the original mens loos sometimes to be found at preserved railway stations. There's been a tendency to roof in their original unroofed magnificance, and this hasn't always been to their atmospheric advantage. The signature point though is no more disharging train toilets onto the track. No more is to be seen the sign "Do not flush the toilet when the train is at the station" - sometimes appended with 'Except Woking...'.

Tables ; Now you say it, yes, they were sometimes confined to carriages where food might be served.

Catering  Trolley; Is this a species that at that time not yet evolved from its precursor, the ecological niche being well filled by the buffet and its larger sibling, the restaurant kitchen?

WiFi; Hats off to was it the M&SW that pioneered phone calls from a train back in 1910 or so. That aside, wireless apparatus ... Cumbersome, flakey when moved and generally somewhat delicate and not to be found on a train. In place of the mobile phone, occasionally, (expensive) telegrams could fill the gap but was there an instance of telegram equipment installed on a train, enabling the even more short term sending of message such as: "Arriving Kings Cross 1:03pm. Please meet me."

About 6 months before Sony started selling the Walkman, I recall being on a southbound train at Shap listening to Joan Armatrading tape via a smallish stereo radiocassette and a pair of headphones and thinking 'This could catch on'.

Announcements; [/b] Largely confined to stations, and who among us has not triggered the request for a bespoke announcement to, for example, alert a passenger (me) on a service arriving at Paddington to changed circumstances?

Cycle Spaces; I can't recall any issue with taking a cycle on a train. Also, even in the 1980s BR (British Rail(ways)) accepted accompanied motorbikes (though needed the fuel tank to be drained). Luggage compartments were commonplace. It was in one of those that my cycle managed to stop a down train to Exeter in open country short of Basingstoke, when the tyre bead escaped the rim and the inner tube went off like a rifle shot, causing the guard to pull the communication cord. Oh, and another incident: the last train on a Sunday to Worcester with a connection to Kidderminster. The express pulled in to Worcester but stopped the luggage compartment along with the last carriage off the end of the platform. Staff on the Kidderminster connection, thinking that all passengers had transferred, then set off before staff on the arriving train had organised it to pull forward. There ensued a fairly late night cycle ride Worcester to Kidderminster and even then the A449 wasn't the most cycle friendly road. There was also passengers luggage-in-advance, so something like a cycle could be organised to travel independently of the passenger.

Luggage Racks; I can't recall a shortage of those... in the remote past the string ones were known to be a good place to put a child to bed. More recently, the above-seat luggage racks on... were they called 4-VEPS?... saved the life of a drunk passenger when he woke and assumed the rock steady carriage at line speed on the straight between Tonbridge and Ashford meant that it was stationary alongside the platform, abruptly got to his feet and flung the door open. I attached one end of me to the drunk and the other end I wrapped round the luggage rack at which point all three of us were going no-where (relative to the train) so all was good once again.

CCTV (Closed Circuit Tele Vision)▸ ; Really tricky. Science fiction really. TV cameras were non-trivial and fussy, as was recording video.

Level Access ; Science fiction. (And it shouldn't be, the only positive is that its common absence at the platform train interface is keeping the trains free of daleks. But really, level access isn't something near which humour should be allowed)

Destination Displays; Plentiful, and robust, even if they occasionally involved chalk technology and a member of staff. Who among us hasn't arranged to meet a friend by the green mechanical indicator board at Waterloo? No one now says 'I'll see you at six beneath Waterloo's advertising screen...

Carpets; Ew. Part of their value is the improved acoustic environment though. GWR (Great Western Railway)'s IETs (Intercity Express Train) are an example of a current train whose interior fit-out struggles with its fabrics, and this includes the carpets.

Blinds; Often now a passenger annoyance alas.

Ticket Checks; They happened then, they happened now. Certain current ticket formats are provocatively terrible, perhaps.

Arm Rests; Strange contraptions, occasionally present then and now, & occasionally coincide with the traveller's body size. Can be quite useful to help set a boundary for personal space.

Coat Hooks; Luggage racks tended to stand in for bespoke coat hooks.

Seat Reservation Lights; The technological dream but taken to the edge the moment the train slurps its reservation data once the passengers are aboard. Also, the notorious cross country voyager from Penzance to Bristol, its passengers reduced to hysteria after the seat reservations not only appeared after departure, but then for some reason vanished after an hour, to reappear with a different set of reservations... and then half an hour later did so for the third time... resulting in... scenes.
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broadgage
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« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2024, 12:05:54 »

Damp in old trains was sometimes due to small leaks from the steam heating. Any large leak was obvious and potentially dangerous, but small leaks added appreciable moisture to the air.
External steam leaks were common from defective steam heating connections between coaches, or from faulty steam traps.

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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
broadgage
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2024, 03:26:30 »

Quote from: Mark A link=topic=29267.msg352130#msg352130 date=1728210853


[b
Power; [/b] Well... not to be found. But then, people didn't carry gadgets and railway carriage engineers found it a struggle even to provide electric lighting. And then, carriage cleaners... did they use a shore supply or perhaps none? I'm also imagining a never-implemented steampunk solution: steam taps in carriages for a variety of passenger uses. Potentially very useful and I wonder why that wasn't done. Ah, hang on...

Carriage cleaning was generally done with a brush and dustpan, a damp cloth, and a mop and bucket. No electricity needed. If a vacuum cleaner was needed, then yes a shore supply was used. The performance of vacuum cleaners and power tools was often poor due to voltage drop in excessively long and undersized extension leads.
Sometimes a voltage increasing transformer was used at the supply end, presuming an AC mains supply.

Steam taps were installed in some early kitchen cars. A reasonable supply of low pressure steam allowed virtually instant boiling of water for tea and coffee, and the easy reheating of soup, or really hot washing up water.
The idea found little favour due to the complication of providing the steam supply, the carriage heating steam supply could not be used as this was turned off at the engine in mild weather. A dedicated steam supply was needed and also a dedicated through steam pipe on every coach that might be between the engine and the kitchen.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Mark A
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2024, 18:10:37 »

British Pathe reel from 1959 on the occasion of a national strike by the crews of restaurant cars. The film captures footage of an actual railway buffet trolley in the wild, but from the looks of it, not one that would have gone aboard a train.

Mark

https://www.britishpathe.com/asset/163521/
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broadgage
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2024, 01:05:24 »

British Pathe reel from 1959 on the occasion of a national strike by the crews of restaurant cars. The film captures footage of an actual railway buffet trolley in the wild, but from the looks of it, not one that would have gone aboard a train.

Mark

https://www.britishpathe.com/asset/163521/

Other than the unfortunate strike, those  were the good old days with restaurants and buffet cars the norm on long distance trains, lucky to get a trolley these days.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
grahame
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2024, 09:25:03 »

Quote
Can you expect new trains to be "as good"? Are they?  (Voting closed: October 13, 2024)

Old trains were better   - 32%
New trains are better   - 19%
They are much the same   -  16%

We have far greater expectations these days   - 58%
We have a sentimentality for the old   - 54%
We put up with a lot more   - 26%

The whole system has changed and cannot be compared   - 39%
New trains have too much to go wrong   - 55%
The trains are good but how they are used could be improved   - 35%

I wish we could try something radical (follow up to say what)   - 10%

Not sure what conclusions to draw?
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2024, 11:18:50 »

Just scribbling down some numbers on the back of an old envelope, combining those various figures 'old v new', I reckon it's about 50/50.

So, I agree: not sure what conclusions to draw.  Roll Eyes
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