Paddington train regulation question

[whole diary]

[Super Guard]

Chris, if such a process existed it would mean the Signallers might have to admit they are not perfect.

I had a day worth of grief from a signaller once because I had the "cheek" to say he'd cleared the 'wrong signal' (a green on the Down signal instead of the Up one.)

[BBM]

Thanks, Hafren and eightf48544, for your very helpful replies to that question. 

Thanks seconded from me as well! 

[BBM]

Just to record that tonight's 17:36 left on time (even though the ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) from OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) didn't arrive until about 17:30!), but about 30 seconds before departure I noticed an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) on Line 3 coming to a stand at Royal Oak. It was still there as we departed on Line 4 so it would be stationary for at least 2 minutes before it could continue. I couldn't see the window labels so I couldn't identify the train but I'd guess it was the 16:00 from Bristol TM^‡(resolve) waiting to go into Platform 8. So maybe incoming trains don't always get priority - unless of course the dispatcher had pressed the Train Ready to Start button a little earlier this time? But all the same, it still seems crazy to me that the track layout isn't designed to allow a train to arrive into Platform 8 from Line 3 at the same time one departs from Platform 9 towards Line 4! 

[Ollie]

Fair few trains came in late during the peak, so wouldn't assume it was the 16:00 ex Bristol.

[BBM]

Tonight an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) appeared on Line 3 at about 17:35 and arrived into Platform 8 at 17:37. And yes it did have window labels showing it had started at Bristol TM^‡(resolve)! (and there were definitely no other trains right behind it.) So we departed 2 minutes late at 17:38 but thanks to delays crossing from relief to main and back to relief, arrival at Maidenhead was 6 minutes late. Maybe that's no big deal, but it's just so annoying that these delays are being caused by an early train! Grrrrrrrrr! 

[devon_metro]

1A24 1600 BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains)-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) arr PAD 5 early p8 at 1737

[Ollie]

1A24 1600 BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains)-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) arr PAD 5 early p8 at 1737

To make up for it being about half hour late yesterday

[eightf48544]

Another thought, I seem to remember being told that during reconstruction to 6 lines a a right hand crossover from platforms 8 to 9 to line 5 was missed out as there wasn't room to fit it when the time came. You can see where it might have been if you look carefully coming in on Line 6. This would of course helped  clear 4 to 7 for inbound trains.

By the way I travelled every weekday through  both of Paddington's remodelling/resignallings. Don't remeber much about the 60s one but the last was actually done quite well by BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) at least they didn't totally close the station for long periods.

[Boppy]

Hi,

I thought I might bring this topic back up again as I've had a few repeat occurrences of possibly a similar thing happening a few times recently concerning the 18.45 (PADD - SWAN) and 18.48 (PADD - CHELT) HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) from Paddington and yesterday's occurrence has urged me to post about it.

I commute to and from Reading and the earliest train I get back in the evening is the 18.45.  I should point out that I don't get this train every day - about once a week I'd say.  However, when the Bakerloo line gets held up etc I often only have a few minutes to jump on board and I often find that the 18.45 is packed - esp if it's leaving from the unbarriered Platform 8.  Therefore, I quickly run across the bridge to Platform 3 and get the 18.48 instead.

I then find that the 18.48 sometimes soon passes the 18.45 just outside of Paddington - the 18.45 after coming out of Platform 8 from what I could tell yesterday was slowing to cross and waiting for an incoming service to pass.  I've had the reverse frustrating experience of standing on the packed 18.45 thinking at least I'll get into Reading a few minutes early only to watch the 18.48 pass us by!  I'm sure most of the time this problem doesn't happen but when it does it seems to maybe be that the 18.45 "suffers" from the fact it's leaving from Platform 8?  I am also possibly guessing that maybe with a minute delay to the 18.45 it then becomes more sensible to allow the 18.48 ahead and other incoming services past which is why it's done.

Anyway, I thought I may post about it in case anyone else has had the same experience or knowledge about it.

Thanks,

Boppy.

[IndustryInsider]

I've had the reverse frustrating experience of standing on the packed 18.45 thinking at least I'll get into Reading a few minutes early only to watch the 18.48 pass us by! 

Too many trains, not enough route capacity, and the lack of any grade seperated junctions outside of Paddington all contribute to a lack of consistancy. Simple as that. If I was a Reading commuter I'd hang on until the 18:51 Oxford which even as an Adelante has plenty of seats, and despite the stop at Slough, it's nearly always waiting the 18:45/18:48 to clear Reading platform 4.

[Boppy]

Yep the 18.51 is a handy spacious option I agree.  Only reason I tend not to take it is I end up missing the connecting bus home.  I guess that's what is on my mind when I'm trying to juggle which train out of the 18.45 or 18.48 will get into Reading first so I catch my bus 

[eightf48544]

In theory the route for the 18:45 is Platform 8 Line 4 to SN87 Westbourne Park Line 3 to SN109 to Down Main. However since you know when, this route was barred. However, I believe it has now been  reauthorised, but it seems not to be used.

Using this route means the 18:48 could leave before the 18:45 on Line 1 whilst the 18:45 passed it on Line 4/3. The Up train would be on Line 2 so as soon as it cleared the Line 3 to Line 2 crossover 8057 West of SN 109  the 18:45 could proceed to the Down Main in front of the 18:48.

However, as this route is no longer used the 18:45 either has to cross to Line 2 right at the platform end or run Down relief to Acton West and overtake the 18:48. However if there is an incoming trains which would normally have priority the 18:45 has to wait for it to be in the platform, rather than just past Ladbroke Grove another 2 or three minutes holdup. Also as most Up trains seem to use  Line 3 From SN120 (Up Main to Lines 2/3 Junction signal) means Line 3 is not available for Down trains. So the 18:48 has a clear run down Line 1 onto the Down Main overtaking the 18:45 whilst it is wating to cross to Line 2 after the incoming train. Whilst the down relief to Acton is a possibility for the 18:45 it would behind the 18:44 and before the 18:47. Also it has to cross the Up Main at Acton so it would probably either have to wait for or hold up a train on the Up Main.

[BBM]

In theory the route for the 18:45 is Platform 8 Line 4 to SN87 Westbourne Park Line 3 to SN109 to Down Main. However since you know when, this route was barred. However, I believe it has now been  reauthorised, but it seems not to be used.

As far as I can see from the train the point blades on the 8057 crossover from Line 3 to Line 2 west of SN109 have been physically removed so there is no currently no chance of the route being used. It seems to me that in certain respects the post-1992 layout of the track is more restrictive than the old one. In the 'old days' I often remember crossing from Relief to Main at the erstwhile Portobello Junction just to the west of Westbourne Park. Now if a train can't get to Line 3 at Royal Oak it has to continue to Acton before it can cross to the Down Main.

[Boppy]

Wow  - thanks for the in depth replies!

If that route is no longer viable so that a crossing over delay is a regular issue for the 18:45 is there scope for simply switching which platform they both leave from? - i.e. organise the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) on platform 3 to become the 18:45 and the one on platform 8 to be the 18:48?  That way the 18:45 simply always runs ahead and the 18:48 can cross over where necessary onto by then what should be a clear down main.

Or am I opening a major re-organising can of worms here in regards to time required for switch around, other paths being blocked from platform 3 at around 18:45, fuel considerations for which HST can run which route at that instance etc...

[eightf48544]

As far as I can see from the train the point blades on the 8057 crossover from Line 3 to Line 2 west of SN109 have been physically removed so there is no currently no chance of the route being used. It seems to me that in certain respects the post-1992 layout of the track is more restrictive than the old one. In the 'old days' I often remember crossing from Relief to Main at the erstwhile Portobello Junction just to the west of Westbourne Park. Now if a train can't get to Line 3 at Royal Oak it has to continue to Acton before it can cross to the Down Main.

Thanks for that BBM I've not been into Padd for a while I'll look out next time, With HSTS and Heathrow expresses having ATP^▸ (Automatic Train Protection) and everything else having TPWS^▸ (Train Protection and Warning System) I can't see any reason at all for not using the route especialy as I also believe flank protection has been provided at 8059B to divert LINE 3 trains spadding SN109 onto the Down Relief.

Wow  - thanks for the in depth replies!

If that route is no longer viable so that a crossing over delay is a regular issue for the 18:45 is there scope for simply switching which platform they both leave from? - i.e. organise the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) on platform 3 to become the 18:45 and the one on platform 8 to be the 18:48?  That way the 18:45 simply always runs ahead and the 18:48 can cross over where necessary onto by then what should be a clear down main.

Or am I opening a major re-organising can of worms here in regards to time required for switch around, other paths being blocked from platform 3 at around 18:45, fuel considerations for which HST can run which route at that instance etc...

Probably  a small can of worms. It may be possible to swap the platforms of the 17:45/8 but it would depend on when the incoming train arrives so if the stock for 18:45 arrives first and platform 3 is not clear then it would have to go elsewhere. Similarly if the stock for the 48 arrives first and 8 is not available the same thing, thus it cascades.

As a general point I would have thought FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would want both the 45 and 48 behind the gate line rather than the Swansea running from 8.