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Author Topic: HST stabling at Worcester  (Read 26124 times)
supersonic
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« on: June 26, 2008, 12:20:11 pm »

Rumours flying around, are that from the december timetable, FGW will have its own stabling point at Worcester, to keep these sets:

1 x 165/166
3 x HST
2 x 158

This will be kept each night a worcester and form services next morning..
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smithy
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2008, 06:04:02 pm »

Rumours flying around, are that from the december timetable, FGW will have its own stabling point at Worcester, to keep these sets:

1 x 165/166
3 x HST
2 x 158

This will be kept each night a worcester and form services next morning..


that will not happen in my opinion,LM and xc rely heavily on worcs depot usually there is around 15-20 sets a night on there plus 1 turbo.and there is nowhere else to stable sets around worcs
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2008, 06:54:35 pm »

With investment in walking routes, vegetation clearance and lighting, there would be room for extra sets to be stabled in the under used 'goods yard' behind Shrub Hill station.
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willc
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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2008, 10:08:56 pm »

Quote
Rumours flying around, are that from the december timetable, FGW will have its own stabling point at Worcester, to keep these sets:

1 x 165/166
3 x HST
2 x 158

This will be kept each night a worcester and form services next morning..

Would fit in with what Richard Rowland and Mike Carroll said at the public meetings in Charlbury earlier in the year, when it was made clear they were looking at providing stabling facilities at Worcester, at the very least to do away with the empty running to and from Hereford by the HST that forms the first train from Malvern in the mornings - plus associated taxi journeys for the crews.

On top of this there is all the empty running that the two Abergavenny/Hereford HST services do via Newport, to and from St Philips Marsh in Bristol (what ungodly hour do the crews have to get up at to work them?).

Since the Worcester crews are now all HST-trained, which wasn't the case until last December, it would make sense if these services could be operated and crewed from Worcester - though it may be curtains for the Abergavenny starts in the mornings, but there are Arriva trains running about 15-20 minutes ahead of both the HSTs at present, so connections are possible if these were to start at Hereford instead.

The 165 already overnights at Worcester (and another 166 did until last December) - works the early train from Evesham into Worcester, then the morning halts train to Oxford.

And as industry insider notes, there's no shortage of railway-owned land and sidings around Shrub Hill station suitable for the job, though if they leave it too long, I expect some developer would be happy to take it off Network Rail's hands...

Quote
xc rely heavily on worcs depot

Not for much longer, as they are abandoning Worcester services - by the end of this year?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 10:22:38 pm by willc » Logged
Btline
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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2008, 10:19:07 pm »

Lots of new industrial units are going up on the ex goods yard at Worcester.

I know it would never all be used as it is so big, but it does make me a little annoyed.

To think that a motorail ran from Worcester in the 1970s (apparently).
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12hoursunday
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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2008, 12:24:02 pm »

Quote
Rumours flying around, are that from the december timetable, FGW will have its own stabling point at Worcester, to keep these sets:

1 x 165/166
3 x HST
2 x 158

This will be kept each night a worcester and form services next morning..

Would fit in with what Richard Rowland and Mike Carroll said at the public meetings in Charlbury earlier in the year, when it was made clear they were looking at providing stabling facilities at Worcester, at the very least to do away with the empty running to and from Hereford by the HST that forms the first train from Malvern in the mornings


There was talk a few years ago about First Great Western Trains building and opening a depot at Gloucester. That got knocked on the head because of the cost.
.

On top of this there is all the empty running that the two Abergavenny/Hereford HST services do via Newport, to and from St Philips Marsh in Bristol (what ungodly hour do the crews have to get up at to work them?).




Drivers for the First Malvern book on at 01.55 Guards are based at Worcester.
Drivers for the first service from Hereford books on about 03.35 Guards at about 03.15
Drivers for the other Hereford book on at about 04.30ish and Guards at 04.20


Since the Worcester crews are now all HST-trained, which wasn't the case until last December, it would make sense if these services could be operated and crewed from Worcester - though it may be curtains for the Abergavenny starts in the mornings, but there are Arriva trains running about 15-20 minutes ahead of both the HSTs at present, so connections are possible if these were to start at Hereford instead.




Ah! but there are no drivers based at Worcester. So it's a taxi for someone at Bristol or Oxford. Aberganvenny trains would beeter worked first from St phillips Marsh rather Worcester in my opinion.



that will not happen in my opinion,LM and xc rely heavily on worcs depot usually there is around 15-20 sets a night on there plus 1 turbo.and there is nowhere else to stable sets around worcs


A revamp and clear up of the budlia around the back of the station would be necessary.
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willc
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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2008, 04:33:51 pm »

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Aberganvenny trains would beeter worked first from St phillips Marsh rather Worcester in my opinion.

But how many people actually do travel from Abergavenny anyway? It takes about an hour longer than going via Newport, even with the connecting time. And they don't serve Abergavenny on the way back to Bristol at night.

Quote
Ah! but there are no drivers based at Worcester. So it's a taxi for someone at Bristol or Oxford.

Well, maybe there should be, since there are the train managers and catering crews at WOS already. When the rest of the Cotswold Line services were worked by a completely different train fleet, it obviously made sense to operate the Hereford services out of Bristol, but now that all but a handful of trains are HSTs, that special status has disappeared.

Given the distances involved and the times of these taxi trips, never mind the rocketing cost of fuel, taxi-ing drivers to and from Hereford (for the Malvern train) and Worcester (for the morning halts train and home after the 21.48 from London gets to WOS) must cost a small fortune every week, even if it's on a long-term contract. I thought they were supposed to be running a railway here, not enriching the competition.

I notice on the FGW website they are looking for drivers at Gloucester at the moment. If they signed for HSTs that could cut down on the taxis (they could share with whoever's off to drive the 158s to Bristol and beyond) and the distance on the road, give crews an extra hour (or two) in bed and offer a more productive use of their time on duty.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 04:37:07 pm by willc » Logged
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2008, 08:21:13 pm »


Given the distances involved and the times of these taxi trips, never mind the rocketing cost of fuel, taxi-ing drivers to and from Hereford (for the Malvern train) and Worcester (for the morning halts train and home after the 21.48 from London gets to WOS) must cost a small fortune every week, even if it's on a long-term contract. I thought they were supposed to be running a railway here, not enriching the competition.


At the moment the driver (Oxford based) who works the 21:48 Paddington-Worcester from Oxford stays overnight and returns working the 'halts' train the next morning, so taxis to/from Oxford are usually not required except on Saturday night and Sunday morning. However, with about 4 hours at Worcester doing nothing, the drivers time could hardly be considered productive!

There used to be a daily taxi in the early morning from Oxford to Worcester and late evening from Worcester to Oxford up until the first up and down Malvern train changed to a HST last December. I believe up until then the annual taxi contract was worth about ^40k for this contract alone (including the weekend ones).

I wonder what the annual taxi bill for FGW is? After all, they have to fork out on plenty of them to get stranded punters home too! Mind you, compared with the Freight companies (whose drivers seen to spend half their shift getting taxied somewhere), It's probably quite small!

There have been rumours of a dedicated driver depot at Worcester for FGW rescently. There's no reason why this couldn't happen, and also there's no reason why drivers from London Midland based there couldn't be 'hired' to drive FGW trains - that is what happened until around the turn of this decade.
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12hoursunday
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2008, 02:33:06 pm »


When the rest of the Cotswold Line services were worked by a completely different train fleet, it obviously made sense to operate the Hereford services out of Bristol, but now that all but a handful of trains are HSTs, that special status has disappeared.
.

there has never been more than a handful of HSTs returning to/from Bristol (2 in the morning and 2 in the Evening.)





I wonder what the annual taxi bill for FGW is? After all, they have to fork out on plenty of them to get stranded punters home too!



Not always. Remember, any taxi's used for passengers for trains delays only get paid for when the delay belongs to FGW. Anything for say signalling or freight train failure gets charged back to whoever the delay is caused by!



There have been rumours of a dedicated driver depot at Worcester for FGW rescently. There's no reason why this couldn't happen, and also there's no reason why drivers from London Midland based there couldn't be 'hired' to drive FGW trains - that is what happened until around the turn of this decade.

First I've heard of these rumours, and I keep my ear to the ground! As for the hiring in of another companies drivers I find this hard to believe. Currently First hire in Arriva Trains Wales drvers/guards to work Cardiff-Portsmouth services and I think some train crew from a Company on the Southern (not sure which). But this will be changing as they are taking it all back in house. Also with their recruitment program of drivers and guards ongoing and then the giving away of work to another depot yet alone another company doesn't seem like good buisness sense to me!
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2008, 05:07:02 pm »


First I've heard of these rumours, and I keep my ear to the ground! As for the hiring in of another companies drivers I find this hard to believe. Currently First hire in Arriva Trains Wales drvers/guards to work Cardiff-Portsmouth services and I think some train crew from a Company on the Southern (not sure which). But this will be changing as they are taking it all back in house. Also with their recruitment program of drivers and guards ongoing and then the giving away of work to another depot yet alone another company doesn't seem like good buisness sense to me!

Well, you heard it from me first then. Mind you of course, at least 75% of rumours within the industry turn out to be complete bobbins! Wink I think it is Redhill based drivers you speak of. And, yes, that may be changing, but local decisions are dictated by local circumstances. It MIGHT make more business sense to hire, say three Worcester based London Midland drivers a day from a passed out link of sixteen, than operate your own very small depot at that location (you'd want about eight to cover three daily diagrams with allowances for days off/sickness etc.) It might not. I'm not saying it will (that was not part of the rumour), but as it has been done before at this very location until fairly recently it would certainly not be unfeasable.
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willc
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2008, 01:49:47 am »

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there has never been more than a handful of HSTs returning to/from Bristol (2 in the morning and 2 in the Evening.)

My point is that until last year the Herefords were the only HST turns on the route, so it made sense to operate them out of Bristol. The situation has now reversed completely, with just a couple of trains not booked for HSTs.

If the trains are going to spend the night at Worcester anyway, and the train managers are there, then surely someone can come up with a better way to do things than bringing drivers miles and miles up the M5 by taxi at dead of night? Especially if you save tens of thousands of pounds on those taxis or overnight lodging into the bargain.

And running to and from Bristol is fine when it all goes well, but when it doesn't - eg the empty stock gets stranded behind broken-down freights somewhere between Newport and Hereford; or so delayed off the depot that it gets sent straight to Worcester; or suffers a bad delay between Hereford and Worcester and gets routed via Stroud instead of along the Cotswold Line, to avoid problems on the single line - the consequences for passengers are plain awful, with a socking great hole blown in the Cotswold Line peak timetable and Oxford losing a fast train to London.

These points were conceded by Richard Rowland at Charlbury and he indicated they were one of the factors in them looking at stabling more trains at Worcester. I got the feeling that a set goes to Hereford each night more because there is siding space with power and water supplies available than because it is seen as the best solution. After all, Great Malvern back to Worcester is an eight-mile trip. Malvern-Hereford is nigh on 20 miles.

I doubt LM would want any Cotswold Line driving work back. The previous agreement was dropped at Central's request, as they were stepping up their services from Worcestershire into Birmingham and needed all their drivers. And would it really make sense to train the depot just so they could drive 125s for 50-odd miles to Oxford and back?
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2008, 04:35:21 pm »

To my mind what this thread shows more than anything is the stupidity of the franchise system.

Worcester just illustrates the absurb lengths a TOC has to go to get stock, crews from its depots to their morning start up point because the railway is fragmented an each TOC only has use of its own depots.

It means that both LM and FGW probably have to have more drivers than would be needed to run the combined service based on Worcester. Also presumably some of the LM stabled sets start out in the morning with an empty stock run and return empty at night. So both TOCs are having excess ecs runs.

Under the curent system it can't be sorted out.

What you need is a Worcester depot with multi route, multi stock trained drivers who work the whole service out of Worcester.





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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2008, 11:33:54 pm »

The rumour mill is working overtime - I overheard a conversation today between two FGW staff saying about a FGW drivers depot being established at Worcester within the next year or two. According to them it will have an establishment of around 30 drivers and will take over (either partially or completely) the current depot work at Gloucester. Apparently it has already been discussed by the unions. Well, time will tell...  Roll Eyes
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2009, 10:08:10 pm »

From the Worcester News:

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A train company could be fined ^1,000 for disturbing people by leaving the engines running through the night.

An environmental health boss at Worcester City Council said the noise of the trains at Kennet Green near Shrub Hill station in Worcester is ^unacceptable^ following a late night visit to the cul-de-sac.

An officer from the council visited people living in the area during the early hours of Tuesday morning following complaints.

Stationary trains have been parked opposite Kennet Green with their loud engines rumbling between midnight and 5am on weekdays for the last two months.

A letter of complaint from a resident has already been sent to First Great Western customer services about the noise from the trains used for the Worcester to London Paddington service.

Martin Gillies, the environmental health manager at the city council, said: ^First Great Western are saying that by keeping the engines running it^s providing heating and lighting and that the engine is difficult to start if left off for more than a few hours. That^s unacceptable. Unless it can be resolved informally, we will be serving a statutory abatement notice. That will require them to stop the noise nuisance. With them being a commercial operation, they face an unlimited fine. Initially, it^s ^1,000. If they break the notice we would appeal to magistrates for an abatement order. That would be a direction from the court that they need to comply with the requirements of that order.^

A spokesman for First Great Western declined to confirm if more trains would be parked overnight opposite Kennet Green in future, as some people claimed. She said: ^We leave one of two engines running on this train overnight to generate power so it can be cleaned and made ready for service the following morning. We know this has caused some noise problems with residents and are looking at how we can minimise this as much as possible.^

An informal meeting is due to take place with bosses at FGW this week.
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« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2009, 10:12:27 pm »

What on earth do they expect  Huh

As it turns out, the MTU engine requires warm conditions for optimum running. As there is no ETS supply in these sidings, an engine must be kept running.
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