Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 11:55 28 Mar 2024
* Manhunt after stabbing in front of train passengers
- How do I renew my UK passport and what is the 10-year rule?
- Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
28th Mar (1992)
MOD Kineton tour, branch line society (*)

Train RunningCancelled
10:15 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
10:30 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare
10:41 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
11:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
11:16 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
11:23 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington
11:30 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
11:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
12:15 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
12:17 Westbury to Swindon
12:30 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare
13:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
13:15 Swindon to Westbury
14:19 Westbury to Swindon
15:14 Swindon to Westbury
Short Run
06:00 London Paddington to Penzance
07:10 Penzance to London Paddington
08:03 London Paddington to Penzance
09:30 Weymouth to Gloucester
10:35 London Paddington to Exeter St Davids
10:45 Bristol Temple Meads to Salisbury
10:55 Paignton to London Paddington
11:12 Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads
11:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
12:03 London Paddington to Penzance
12:12 Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads
13:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
Delayed
08:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
08:35 Plymouth to London Paddington
08:48 London Paddington to Swansea
09:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
09:37 London Paddington to Paignton
09:51 Warminster to Gloucester
10:04 London Paddington to Penzance
An additional train service has been planned to operate as shown 12:07 Bristol Temple Meads to Gloucester
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 28, 2024, 12:07:05 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[161] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[91] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[62] Return of the BRUTE?
[53] If not HS2 to Manchester, how will traffic be carried?
[49] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[38] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17 18 ... 30
  Print  
Author Topic: Dawlish Avoiding Line - ongoing discussion, merged topic  (Read 157300 times)
Lee
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7519


GBR - The Emperor's New Rail Network


View Profile WWW
« Reply #225 on: March 03, 2014, 10:20:59 »

Semantics -Especially as I was one who pointed it out  Grin

Ok, have it your way - Hallgate did assert that going via Okehampton would involve a near 4 hour journey time - it is an absolute fact that he said that.

What I am saying is that if a (so far) silent majority of forum members agree with Hallgate on that, then they should feel free to post and I will respect that.
Logged

Vous devez être impitoyable, parce que ces gens sont des salauds - https://looka.com/s/78722877
Andy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 544



View Profile
« Reply #226 on: March 03, 2014, 11:25:03 »

Personally, I find it hard to imagine that it would take 4 hours to get to Plymouth via Okehampton. Lee's 3.30 seems nearer the mark. If we assume that London Paddington-Exeter takes 2 hrs-2 hours 15 mins, would Exeter-Plymouth take 1hr 45?
Logged
Lee
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7519


GBR - The Emperor's New Rail Network


View Profile WWW
« Reply #227 on: March 03, 2014, 11:42:12 »

Your chance to vote in the London-Plymouth via Okehampton Journey Time Poll can be found here.
Logged

Vous devez être impitoyable, parce que ces gens sont des salauds - https://looka.com/s/78722877
Red Squirrel
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5190


There are some who call me... Tim


View Profile
« Reply #228 on: March 03, 2014, 12:07:43 »

GRIP (Guide to Railway Investment Projects) 0 is 'What are we trying to achieve?'

It's a very good question to ask at the outset! All the route options give resilience, so what we are arguing about is the second-order gains.

We on this forum seem to be split between 'deepeners' and 'wideners': 'deepeners' want to speed up the current service, which would probably push us in the direction of C1 ((on coaches) National route restriction), C2 or C3; 'wideners' are more interested in making rail services more readily available to people who live north of Dartmoor, which suggests route A. I don't hear many advocates of B.

I can't see that the line speeds achieved on the Okehampton route back in the days of 60ft rail and clockwork signals have much bearing on what would be achievable if it were rebuilt - ^700 million ought to go a very long way towards giving it a much better line speed. It might not be quite as quick as the 'C' routes, but surely the gain for North Devon, plus the extra capacity, has to be an important consideration?
Logged

Things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.
AMLAG
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 227


View Profile
« Reply #229 on: March 03, 2014, 12:10:13 »

Hopefully Paddington to Plymouth via an Okehampton diversionary route will realistically be under 4 hours but a train journey time extension is usually far more acceptable to the vast majority of rail passengers compared to enduring lengthy & unpopular bus journeys.

Thus the reason Cross Country (rather slowly to instigate some might say) have provided an increasing number of trains services between Exeter and Bristol diverted via Westbury, that whilst adding about 45 mins. to the journey have nevertheless been chosen and preferred by rail passengers.

The Government concerned with the large amount of planned bustitution in recent years has set NR» (Network Rail - home page) objectives for a big reduction in the need for bustitution and aspires to a 24/7 Railway.

To this end not only would an Exeter/Okehampton/Plymouth re-opened railway (serving Okehampton, Sourton Parkway & Tavistock) be available as a diversionary route for Plymouth & Cornwall rail traffic in times of emergencies on the South Devon route but it could also be used for diversions for planned Infrastructure works on the South Devon route which normally amounts to several weekends, sometimes also weekdays, a year; thereby enabling NR to meet some of its Government set objectives.

It is known that the Southern Exeter/Plymouth main line was engineered to a far higher standard than the South Devon/GWR (Great Western Railway) route..not least with regards to its much easier gradients and lack of numerous sharp curves which cause, for about 25 miles between N.Abbot & Hemerdon, considerable & costly wheel flange/rail wear & resultant shortened life,  ..you only have to be on an HST (High Speed Train) to appreciate the wheels aggressively grinding into the rails at max. line speed of (only) 60mph on the curves.

 
Logged
RichardB
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 958


View Profile
« Reply #230 on: March 03, 2014, 13:17:31 »

I was there too on Saturday - it was a very interesting day - and just wanted to add a couple of observations on the potential journey time via Okehampton.

Patrick Hallgate gave an excellent presentation but did not seem particularly well informed when it came to the Okehampton route.  To be fair, he said the study of all the potential additional routes was being done, to be with ministers by the end of June.

As has been pointed out, in BR (British Rail(ways)) days, at the end, a fast service on the Okehampton line took around 20 minutes longer than via Newton Abbot.  In the line's final timetable, two Sunday trains were booked to take 1 hr 40 mins with four stops as against 1 hr 21 mins with two stops on the Western.   The thing to point out here was that, for reasons of economy as much as anything, the line speed for the 23 miles south of Bridestowe was just 40MPH (by contrast, it's now 55MPH for most of the line south of Bere Alston).

In May 1966, Ian Allan organised a non stop special from Paddington - Penzance, back to Waterloo.  It must have been quite a day.   I have attached a log of the Plymouth - Waterloo section which shows that it took 72 minutes to get from Plymouth - Newton St Cyres after which a speed restriction for the Cowley Bridge replacement works meant it took another ten minutes to St Davids (82 mins from Plymouth in all, with one stop).   

For me, the Okehampton route would mean no more bus replacements for those of us who live in Plymouth and Cornwall and this would be great.  However, of course, it would not be the fast route that many here are looking for, not least Plymouth City Council, the Chamber of Commerce etc.

We'll see what the study says but, if it is to be the Okehampton route (if we get any additional route at all), then it need not be as slow as some fear.




Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« Reply #231 on: March 03, 2014, 13:32:49 »

We on this forum seem to be split between 'deepeners' and 'wideners': 'deepeners' want to speed up the current service, which would probably push us in the direction of C1 ((on coaches) National route restriction), C2 or C3; 'wideners' are more interested in making rail services more readily available to people who live north of Dartmoor, which suggests route A. I don't hear many advocates of B.

Agreed - Patrick Hallgate (PH) referred to some of that route having been built on, so he thought it was going to be an expensive option too.

Quote
It might not be quite as quick as the 'C' routes, but surely the gain for North Devon, plus the extra capacity, has to be an important consideration?

Only to HMG in approving whichever scheme (if they go for any) - it seemed as though PH was under instruction only to look to provide a report on which route(s) might be diversionary & at what price. It will be for HMG to decide whether any mitigating factors over the price differences are worth paying. I suspect they may look to the local Councils to put their money where their mouth is, if they can all decide which route suits them all! Could be an interesting few months lobbying....
Logged
trainbuff
Transport Scholar
Sr. Member
******
Posts: 245


View Profile
« Reply #232 on: March 03, 2014, 16:01:33 »

Just found this report online. Talks of advantages of a number of schemes, the merits of SD (south Dartmoor) and ND (North Dartmoor) and proposed electrification and development of direct routes into Cornwall.

A pdf file but you can find it in the list on the google search below. Second item down:-

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+Dawlish+railway+resilience+report+2012&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gws_rd=cr&ei=KaUUU5ugHKiS7Ablq4GQDQ
Logged

Invest in Railways in Devon and Cornwall!
Red Squirrel
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5190


There are some who call me... Tim


View Profile
« Reply #233 on: March 03, 2014, 16:16:34 »

This link will take you straight to the report. Smiley
Logged

Things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.
Umberleigh
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 456


View Profile
« Reply #234 on: March 03, 2014, 17:21:00 »

Network Rail have poured scorn on a new/reopened route avoiding Dawlish since day one. It is quite apparent they will claim the repaired sea wall is more resilient (heard that before?) and no further action is needed.

Look at their latest tactic: tell the Plymouth business community that only Dawlish can deliver their cherished 3hr trip journey time to London. Add into this constant sniping about development on the old route/s, cost and 'problems' and it paints a very negative approach. An approach quite at odds with the 'can do' attitude of the Crossrail and HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) projects: if only Crossrail involved demolishing some offices, a couple of houses and strengthening a viaduct, eh?

Meanwhile, the sea levels keep rising and the 'storms of a century' become almost annual events...
Logged
exeterkiwi
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 22


View Profile
« Reply #235 on: March 03, 2014, 18:27:48 »

I don't know who Tom Worsley  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26407806.

Transport spending is a lot lower than other parts of the country per head ^212 per person in the South West Compared to ^774 in London But I could be rong here the land would be cheaper in the south west to build on.

Guy
Logged
34104
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 128


View Profile
« Reply #236 on: March 03, 2014, 20:02:42 »

Just found this report online. Talks of advantages of a number of schemes, the merits of SD (south Dartmoor) and ND (North Dartmoor) and proposed electrification and development of direct routes into Cornwall.

A pdf file but you can find it in the list on the google search below. Second item down:-

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+Dawlish+railway+resilience+report+2012&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gws_rd=cr&ei=KaUUU5ugHKiS7Ablq4GQDQ

Wonder who that report was produced for? JCR seem to be a recognised company;

http://www.jrc.org.uk/

Not really the sort of thing you would spend time on and then put on the internet if there is no purpose to it but it takes all sorts to make a world i suppose.Some of the proposals would appear to be rather ambitious in all truth,visionary certainly but vision doesn't seem to cut much ice with relevant autorities,especially as far as the west country is concerned.Curious.
Logged
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4355


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #237 on: March 03, 2014, 20:03:57 »

Network Rail will put proposals forward with cost estimates for all of Dawlish alternative routes it will then be down to the campaigning of the people in Devon and Cornwall to get the Political determination to construct the alternative route
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18894



View Profile
« Reply #238 on: March 03, 2014, 20:09:29 »

For me, the Okehampton route would mean no more bus replacements for those of us who live in Plymouth and Cornwall and this would be great. 

Build a DAL and no one (excepting Dawlish and Teignmouth); not Plymouth, not Cornwall, not Totnes, not Torbay would need bus replacements.

Oh, and an avoiding line also ticks the 'journey time improvement' box which should please the vocal lot in Plymouth.  Wink

I appear to be a lone voice sticking up for the South Hams and Torbay.  Sad
Logged

"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

- Sir Terry Pratchett.
John R
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4416


View Profile
« Reply #239 on: March 03, 2014, 20:26:45 »

Build a DAL and no one (excepting Dawlish and Teignmouth); not Plymouth, not Cornwall, not Totnes, not Torbay would need bus replacements.

Oh, and an avoiding line also ticks the 'journey time improvement' box which should please the vocal lot in Plymouth.  Wink

I appear to be a lone voice sticking up for the South Hams and Torbay.  Sad

No you're not, I'm with you on this.
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17 18 ... 30
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page