Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About
Waterloo Campaign
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 04:15 29 Jun 2022
- Why I kept my sexuality a secret at work
- Rail workers outdated, says Transport Secretary
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 16/07/22 - Railfuture AGM, Bristol
23/07/22 - 100 years / Hythe Pier
20/08/22 - Imber Bus
20/08/22 - Imber bus day

On this day
29th Jun (1898)
First through passenger train leaves St Johns for Port-aux-Basques

Train RunningNo cancellations or delays
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
June 29, 2022, 04:30:04 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[60] 2022 - TransWilts cancellations and amendments log
[53] FlexiSeasons - a year on?
[53] Portishead Line reopening for passengers - ongoing discussion
[38] Bristol Parkway consultation meetings
[36] South Western Railways Waterloo - Bristol services axed
[31] Off to Weymouth on Sunday!
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 27 28 [29] 30
  Print  
Author Topic: Dawlish Avoiding Line - ongoing discussion, merged topic  (Read 152126 times)
Rapidash
Full Member
***
Posts: 91


View Profile
« Reply #420 on: April 04, 2015, 05:44:53 pm »

And another thing!

The focus on services to London!

If anyone bothered to do a bit counting, they'd notice it's not the Paddington services that are filled up leaving Newton Abbot in the dark depths of December. it's the XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services to the Midlands and the North  Shocked Obviously they don't make as much money for whatever reason, but getting a seat on a Voyager after Newton is rare as hens teeth! Doubly so in Summer!

Sorry about that, but somedays a vent is required  Grin

Oh, look. A dried frog pill.....
Logged
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18111



View Profile
« Reply #421 on: April 04, 2015, 06:22:28 pm »

Oh, look. A dried frog pill.....

Calm down BursarGrin
Logged

http://www.templecombevillage.uk/station.html

There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist. - Sir Terry Pratchett
Rhydgaled
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1500


View Profile WWW
« Reply #422 on: April 04, 2015, 06:26:51 pm »

If anyone bothered to do a bit counting, they'd notice it's not the Paddington services that are filled up leaving Newton Abbot in the dark depths of December. it's the XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services to the Midlands and the North  Shocked Obviously they don't make as much money for whatever reason, but getting a seat on a Voyager after Newton is rare as hens teeth! Doubly so in Summer!
How long are the XC trains though? Given a refurbished 2+8 IC125 has 546 seats (I think) they may not be full but still be carrying the same number of passengers as a rammed 5-car Voyager (only 262 seats*). Even a 10-car double Voyager formation (524 seats*) would fall short of the capacity of an IC125.

If we assume all the seats on single 5-car Voyagers are gone even in winter and that the loadings on the IC125s are similar how many passengers are we looking at. In the range 300-350 per train maybe? Or, given how much more capacity an IC125 has, it could be nearer 400 on the London services and still not look all that busy?

As for the XC service making less money, how much does lease, track-access and fuel cost compared to a 2+8 IC125 as well?

* I think
Logged

----------------------------
Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 36389



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #423 on: April 04, 2015, 06:34:02 pm »

If anyone bothered to do a bit counting, they'd notice it's not the Paddington services that are filled up leaving Newton Abbot in the dark depths of December. it's the XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services to the Midlands and the North  Shocked Obviously they don't make as much money for whatever reason ...

But aren't the trains to the Midlands typically a bit shorter than the London trains - so whilst numbers per carriage might be higher, you can't extrapolate that to number of passengers per day.

How long are the XC trains though? Given a refurbished 2+8 IC125 has 546 seats (I think) they may not be full but still be carrying the same number of passengers as a rammed 5-car Voyager (only 262 seats*). Even a 10-car double Voyager formation (524 seats*) would fall short of the capacity of an IC125.

Ah - you saved me looking that up.    ALSO to consider - number of trains, driver and train manager costs,  different loading patterns for the routes which will make it appear to the average Midlands passenger that his train is busier, and to the average London passenger that his is busier.  Also take into account the number of civil servants, MPs (Member of Parliament) and media people travelling to London versus the number travelling up north when you look at the relative exposure.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
Rapidash
Full Member
***
Posts: 91


View Profile
« Reply #424 on: April 04, 2015, 07:53:52 pm »

If anyone bothered to do a bit counting, they'd notice it's not the Paddington services that are filled up leaving Newton Abbot in the dark depths of December. it's the XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services to the Midlands and the North  Shocked Obviously they don't make as much money for whatever reason ...

But aren't the trains to the Midlands typically a bit shorter than the London trains - so whilst numbers per carriage might be higher, you can't extrapolate that to number of passengers per day.

How long are the XC trains though? Given a refurbished 2+8 IC125 has 546 seats (I think) they may not be full but still be carrying the same number of passengers as a rammed 5-car Voyager (only 262 seats*). Even a 10-car double Voyager formation (524 seats*) would fall short of the capacity of an IC125.

Ah - you saved me looking that up.    ALSO to consider - number of trains, driver and train manager costs,  different loading patterns for the routes which will make it appear to the average Midlands passenger that his train is busier, and to the average London passenger that his is busier.  Also take into account the number of civil servants, MPs (Member of Parliament) and media people travelling to London versus the number travelling up north when you look at the relative exposure.

I think perhaps that is part of the issue - unless its a Beeb bodd headed to Manchester (they'd take the plane, anyway) they won't be noticing it. An example I can give here is the 0703  and the 0740  out of Paignton. Both tend to be fully booked,  both get into Exeter before 0900. The XC service is full up until Exeter, where it half empties out, but is then filled with people headed to Bristol and beyond.  From a look at the digital displays, the major destinations are Brum and Manc. The Paddington service is less than a quarter full by Exeter, despite the majority of seats being reserved (Good thing about paper resevations is you can see them from afar!) - but they all seem to be booked from Taunton and Bristol.

It'll be different come May when the season really starts, as per usual.

Just imagine if we had some intercity services going via Exeter Central, it would be full and standing for the rest of time!
Logged
34104
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 128


View Profile
« Reply #425 on: June 17, 2015, 09:18:08 am »

Campaign for Rural England in favour of the Okehampton route;

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/New-reopen-railway-line-north-Plymouth/story-26712958-detail/story.html

Not sure how much clout or influence CFRE have on these matters but certainly wouldn't have thought their support could do any harm.
Logged
PhilWakely
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1738



View Profile
« Reply #426 on: June 17, 2015, 09:32:17 am »

Campaign for Rural England in favour of the Okehampton route;

This may have been deliberately timed as there was a piece on BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) Spotlight last evening about Network Rail wishing to invest millions "further strengthening the section between Starcross and Teignmouth, rather than spend  'potentially billions' on an inland route". I don't have the specific link, but I'll try and dig it out.
Logged
34104
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 128


View Profile
« Reply #427 on: June 17, 2015, 09:51:28 am »

Campaign for Rural England in favour of the Okehampton route;

This may have been deliberately timed as there was a piece on BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) Spotlight last evening about Network Rail wishing to invest millions "further strengthening the section between Starcross and Teignmouth, rather than spend  'potentially billions' on an inland route". I don't have the specific link, but I'll try and dig it out.

Yertiz, at 10;13

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05ys4cj/spotlight-16062015

Not sure where they got the information that the inland route would cost "billions"-as I recall the Network Rail study carried out awhile back stated somewhere in the region of ^850m and that was with a 66% overrun factor built in. Hopefully this is speculative and ill informed nonsense rather than being based on subtle hints being dropped by "sources within NR» (Network Rail - home page)".

Logged
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 6419



View Profile
« Reply #428 on: June 17, 2015, 11:41:43 am »

Campaign for Rural England in favour of the Okehampton route;

This may have been deliberately timed as there was a piece on BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) Spotlight last evening about Network Rail wishing to invest millions "further strengthening the section between Starcross and Teignmouth, rather than spend  'potentially billions' on an inland route". I don't have the specific link, but I'll try and dig it out.

Yertiz, at 10;13

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05ys4cj/spotlight-16062015

Not sure where they got the information that the inland route would cost "billions"-as I recall the Network Rail study carried out awhile back stated somewhere in the region of ^850m and that was with a 66% overrun factor built in. Hopefully this is speculative and ill informed nonsense rather than being based on subtle hints being dropped by "sources within NR» (Network Rail - home page)".



...........in the light of recent events (ie electrification overspend), how confident are you in NR's cost projections? Undecided
Logged
Southernman
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 111


View Profile
« Reply #429 on: June 17, 2015, 11:51:23 am »

I heard that report and wonder if the 'Inland Route' costing billions was the one behind Dawlish and not referring to the Okehampton line. The cost projections to re-open the Nortern route are, as stated above, significantly less than one billion pounds.
Logged
trainbuff
Transport Scholar
Sr. Member
******
Posts: 234


View Profile
« Reply #430 on: June 17, 2015, 12:39:16 pm »

Yes cost of a DAL is put between ^1.49billion and ^3.1billion.

Cost of 'Northern Route' put at ^875million for double track all the way.

The CPRE (Campaign to Protect Rural England) Report talks of single track with dynamic loops, as the Exeter Waterloo line is, which would bring the price down further to around the ^650million quoted.

In reality the line only needs to carry 2 or 3 trains (latter preferable) each way per hour over its central section from Bere Alston to Coleford junction. At both ends additional double track may be needed from Crediton to Newton St Cyres, something that would help speed up Barnstaple services, and a section between Bere Alston and St Budeaux Ferry Road.

Later on if the DAL is to be built it can be IN ADDITION bringing all the benefits of both routes
Logged

Invest in Railways in Devon and Cornwall!
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 9252


View Profile
« Reply #431 on: June 17, 2015, 02:01:32 pm »

If you ask me, what will happen all depends on whether there's a significant problem with the sea wall over the next couple of winters.  If there isn't I can see very little happening, and if there is then the momentum will be carried forward and a modest spec inland route, like the ^650m one Trainbuff refers to, will be built.
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
Red Squirrel
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4664


There are some who call me... Tim


View Profile
« Reply #432 on: June 18, 2015, 11:14:20 pm »

For info, here is a link to the CPRE (Campaign to Protect Rural England)'s Rural Reconnections report.

http://www.cpre.org.uk/resources/transport/rail/item/3986-rural-reconnections

There's 57 pages in the document, which uses the LSWR (London South Western Railway) Okehampton route as a case study to point out how reopening other routes could benefit the rural economy.
Logged

Things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10999


View Profile Email
« Reply #433 on: June 19, 2015, 08:42:52 am »

As it would across the country, not just in the SW.

But who's paying, and who derermines priority?
Logged
Red Squirrel
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4664


There are some who call me... Tim


View Profile
« Reply #434 on: June 19, 2015, 09:08:59 am »


...

But who's paying, and who derermines priority?


That's the ^640,000,000 (or is it ^3BN?) question...

I can't claim to have read every word in the CPRE (Campaign to Protect Rural England) report, but it seems to me that the main point they are making is that the current BCR (Benefit Cost Ratio) calculations take little if any account of the growth that is likely to follow on from rail investment. The thing about capital investment is that you aren't spending the money, you're putting it somewhere where it adds value; this kind of thing ought to chime pretty well with the government's policy of building economic strength in the regions by releasing untapped economic potential.

But that doesn't really answer the question. If this really is investment, and if private funds are unlikely to be forthcoming, then the money can only come from central government. But it's perhaps not that fanciful to suggest that they might find a way to do this, preferably without putting it 'on the books'.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 06:50:09 pm by Four Track, Now! » Logged

Things take longer to happen than you think they will, and then they happen faster than you thought they could.
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 ... 27 28 [29] 30
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page