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Author Topic: Cotswold Line redoubling: 2008 - 2011  (Read 641419 times)
Btline
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« Reply #1470 on: September 02, 2011, 13:05:41 »

Oh gawd, have I awoken the old "chop all the stops for the benefit of Worcester residents" chestnut again...  Embarrassed

Not all. But having peak Worcester trains stopping at places like Hanborough and Honeybourne is ridiculous.
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Andrew1939 from West Oxon
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« Reply #1471 on: September 02, 2011, 14:05:26 »

These Worcestershire people cannot get it into their heads that that the Cotswold Line needs the traffic from the eastern end of the line to get  anywhere near financial viability. Without that traffic, services would have to be cut through out the line. Would Worcestershire rail travellers be prepared to pay double the fare to have a fast service to London not stopping at the Oxon stations? If there was more parking available at the Oxon CL stations, rail use would grow enormously as people would be able to avoid the tremendous traffic congestion in the Oxfordshire area roads (90 minutes to travel 13 miles each way between Witney and Oxford) for 3 hours a day starting from 07.00! and forecast to get worse as thousands of people migrate from the London and South East area to West Oxon with no significant highway improvements to cater for extra road use. FGW (First Great Western) understands that -thats why they are increasing services at the eastern end of the line where there is extra business to be earned.

Crumbs, I will have started something with this!
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Btline
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« Reply #1472 on: September 02, 2011, 16:18:06 »

True, but there is an uptapped demand from Worcester. Partly because the the service has been abysmal since the singling, partly because service frequency is too poor for commuters from the Pershore to Worcester or theatre goers from Evesham to Malvern. Ditto for the Cheltenham line. Partly because the rolling stock is so poor.

Result? The Worcester evening rush hour starts at 1pm! (no exaggeration) Not helped by the fact that the bypass has never been finished.

And the service is way too slow for Oxford and London. Chilern's Kidderminster service is now 2 hours 20 mins going via Kidderminster. FGW (First Great Western)'s route is far more direct, but slow. Warwick Parkway - London is now 1 hr 15 minutes - commuters from the Vale of Evesham will desert the line in their droves - especially as the A46/M40 roundabout has a new bypass!

If all those villages are what's keeping the line afloat, just imagine what it would be like if Vale, Worcester, Malvern, Hereford people joined in. We need 2tph Evesham to Worcester (1 LM (London Midland - recent franchise) service to B'ham, the other a FGW). You can axe some Pershore calls if necessary in the peaks to/from London. Then get 2tph to Charlbury (from at least Oxford), then axe Hanborough calls. Axe Ascott, Combe and Finstock. Increase the size of Shipton car park and give them 1 or 2 London trains a day.

Passenger numbers would soar.
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Andrew1939 from West Oxon
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« Reply #1473 on: September 02, 2011, 16:59:05 »

I won't fall for BTLine's bait re axing Hanborough calls. Hanborough has the fastest (percentage way) growth of any CL station and that is with all parking spaces being filled by 06.30. I would however agree that axing the 4 Oxon halts could not really be objected to as all 4 stations attract probably no more than 20-30 travellers a day. A significant increase in car parking facilities could probably double Hanborough use inside year or two. A good size car park could result in renaming it Witney (or West Oxon) Parkway such is the size of population over a 7 or 8 mile radius.

One of the factors that discourages rail use at the western end of the line is that local authorities do not actively discourage private car use. Oxford has for years increased car parking charges so that if you want to park in Oxford you have to pay up to around ^30 a day! As a result Oxford has the highest public transport use of any city in the country of similar size. Make parking charges in Worcester ^20+ a day and I think you would probably see a significant increase in public transport use that, infrastructure permitting, could justify more frequent train (and bus for those not on a rail line) services. Of course what the railway powers do not seem to fully appreciate is that most of the intermediate CL stations have a very wide catchment area with often poor public transport facilities, unlike the urban areas. To boost CL growth much better parking facilities are needed for many CL stations and this is the biggest growth constraint. Chiltern seemed to have cottoned on to this years ago and have invested in many more parking facilities at its stations and is, I think, a factor on its success.
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inspector_blakey
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« Reply #1474 on: September 02, 2011, 17:33:45 »

Bleeder4, I suspect that answering your question would get into the tricky area about promotion of commercial products.

For what it's worth, I don't think any of the moderation team would have a problem with you mentioning a supplement that's likely to be of fairly wide interest to board members (rather than some pharmaceutical product of dubious provenance, for example), especially seeing as this is absolutely the appropriate thread to mention it. So if there is indeed a supplement this weekend feel free to post about it! Graham's guidelines regarding what's acceptable can be found here.

I won't fall for BTLine's bait re axing Hanborough calls.

In order to maintain an appropriate level of hysteria and hyperbole, can I remind all posters that official board policy requires the words AXED, AXE, AXEING and derivatives thereof to be written in CAPITALS?

 Grin Tongue

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Btline
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« Reply #1475 on: September 02, 2011, 18:29:11 »

I won't fall for BTLine's bait re axing Hanborough calls. .... Chiltern seemed to have cottoned on to this years ago and have invested in many more parking facilities at its stations and is, I think, a factor on its success.

I agree with most of your post, especially re: Car Parking. Although Hanborough could still have 1 tph to Oxford/London with Worcester calls AXED axed. Not sure about Car Parking charges - you need the extra trains first, plus a few extra P&R (Park and Ride) sites.

Glad to see that - finally - someone agrees that some of the halts should be axed! I once read a post on this forum that suggested that calls should go up! Shocked

In order to maintain an appropriate level of hysteria and hyperbole, can I remind all posters that official board policy requires the words AXED, AXE, AXEING and derivatives thereof to be written in CAPITALS?

Suits me! Tongue
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Worcester_Passenger
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« Reply #1476 on: September 02, 2011, 19:32:47 »

How many extra copies of the Worcester News do I need to buy tomorrow?
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willc
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« Reply #1477 on: September 03, 2011, 01:18:18 »

The supplement is in the Oxford Mail and Worcester News today. Also available at the railway area (Network Rail, FGW (First Great Western) and CLPG» (Cotswold Line Promotion Group - about) stands are all together) at Moreton-in-Marsh show today - while stocks last. Will be available online at the Oxford Mail website in the next few days.

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Glad to see that - finally - someone agrees that some of the halts should be axed!

Actually, I think you'll find that over the past few years, a number of people have said here that certain halts should close. Redoubling at the eastern end would inevitably put the issue on the agenda at Combe and Finstock due to the costs that would be involved in providing new platforms.

And yet again, you ignore what I have had to say previously when you go off on one about Shipton and Ascott-under-Wychwood's proximity. They may be close but the stations serve separate communities, which is why the Oxford Worcester & Wolverhampton Railway opened two stations in the first place! And people in both places would like the number of trains calling to go up. What's wrong with that? Oh, silly me, I forgot. They don't live in the most important city in the universe...

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Increase the size of Shipton car park

There is no car park at Shipton station.

As usual, you tell us there is untapped demand in Worcestershire, then immediately advocate removing peak calls at Honeybourne and Pershore, returning us to the situation pre-2006 when people from all over the Vale used to besiege Evesham to catch the morning expresses, despite the inadequacy of the parking facilities there, a situation which hasn't changed. Removing Pershore and Honeybourne peak calls is guaranteed to put people off using Cotswold Line trains.

Anyway, why are you bothered, since you will clearly be hitting the road to Warwickshire to use your favourite railway company's new improved service?
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #1478 on: September 03, 2011, 09:13:23 »

To boost CL growth much better parking facilities are needed for many CL stations and this is the biggest growth constraint. Chiltern seemed to have cottoned on to this years ago and have invested in many more parking facilities at its stations and is, I think, a factor on its success.

Very much the case.  Contrast attempts to increase parking spaces at FGW (First Great Western) station with the efforts at Chiltern who have, in the last ten years, expanded Warwick Parkway (which only opened in 2000), Bicester North (twice), Haddenham & Thame Parkway and Beaconsfield.  High Wycombe's expansion has just been completed and work is about to start at Solihull to add 160 spaces there.  Thousands of extra spaces are now provided, oh, and don't forget, Aylesbury Vale Parkway has been opened and that when Evergreen 3 finally gets the green light thousands more will be provided by opening Water Eaton Parkway and expanding Bicester Town.

Despite many rumblings about Pershore and Hanborough, all that has happened on the Cotswold Line is Charlbury gaining a couple of extra spaces when lines were painted and the car park given a proper surface, i.e. ensuring that people parked sensibly.  There's talk of the former allotment area being used as an overflow car park now that the redoubling team have finished with it.  Anyone have any updates on that?
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To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
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« Reply #1479 on: September 03, 2011, 09:19:07 »

Look- when the railways were built stations were built everywhere. Even some stately homes had them built. your point about Ascott is farcical! Ok- the WCML (West Coast Main Line) runs across my back garden, I want a station... Ridiculous!!

The fact is that no main or even secondary line should have such halts. They should only be on slow branches or suburban/inner city lines. The only reason they survived is because of a marginal constituency. The redoubling provided a perfect opportunity. Now every passenger has to subsidise the Ascott and its new platform.

Oh I swear one day I'll get a bulldozer and flatten them myself!!!

FGW (First Great Western) should also invest in their car parks a la Chiltern and LM (London Midland - recent franchise).

I'm glad you finally acknowledge demand at the West of the line! People have deserted the line in droves. I'm sure the tiny car parks at pershore and hanborough would be full whatever so using the "Evesham traffic chaos" argument is silly.
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smokey
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« Reply #1480 on: September 03, 2011, 09:47:05 »

Where I live down devon way the Cotswold line is just one I NEVER travel but to see whats going on, I reckon I'm going to Pack my Bag fill the Vacuum Flask and come on a Visit.

Whens the work due to be finished?

Say Will I need Oxygen as I expect the Air is thin so far UP. Grin

Anybody got Ideas on the Best Town (Rail Served) to visit on the Cotswold line oh and of course a Good B & B?

Do I need my Bucket & Spade?  Grin

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willc
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« Reply #1481 on: September 03, 2011, 10:57:44 »

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Despite many rumblings about Pershore and Hanborough, all that has happened on the Cotswold Line is Charlbury gaining a couple of extra spaces when lines were painted and the car park given a proper surface, i.e. ensuring that people parked sensibly.  There's talk of the former allotment area being used as an overflow car park now that the redoubling team have finished with it.  Anyone have any updates on that?

It was an awful lot more than a couple of spaces actually - also at Kingham - since without markings people tend to give their cars very generous amounts of space. A bid went in during the spring for money from the station enhancements fund to turn the Charlbury site compound on the allotments into permanent parking. A decision is thought to be imminent.

At Pershore efforts to achieve improvements have been frustrated for years because of the piecemeal way former railway land was disposed of around the station. A land swap with one of the adjacent businesses has pretty much been finalised now, which will create a rather more logical parcel of land for station parking and allow extra spaces. Honeybourne has just gained half-a-dozen as a result of the footbridge work and remarking.

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your point about Ascott is farcical

In what way? The station is right next to the village. Given a proper service, not just one a day each way, more people would use trains. Amazingly enough that's what has happened at Pershore, Hanborough and Honeybourne since more trains started to use them. In the early 1970s the first two both had one train a day each way, like the halts, while Honeybourne was closed at that time.

What is farcical about giving people the ability to leave their car at home, never mind at a station? I do not believe that surrounding stations with ever-bigger car parks is necessarily a good thing. It creates congestion and pollution - just ask anyone living near Bicester North.

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Oh I swear one day I'll get a bulldozer and flatten them myself!!!

Are you sure you'll be able to find them? You didn't understand the geography of the area around Combe and Finstock or Ascott and Shipton when raging against them, you didn't know that Shipton doesn't have a car park. You used to advocate withdrawing stops at Charlbury, the busiest intermediate station on the line (on current evidence, the only thing you have ever changed your mind about).
 
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I'm glad you finally acknowledge demand at the West of the line! People have deserted the line in droves. I'm sure the tiny car parks at pershore and hanborough would be full whatever so using the "Evesham traffic chaos" argument is silly.

I have never disputed there is demand at the western end of the line - I know there is demand because there are lots of people on trains arriving at Moreton-in-Marsh from Honeybourne and leaving in the other direction - some of them may even live in Worcester. What I have disputed and will continue to do are:
a. The number of people who actually drive all the way to Warwick and Birmingham International (risking delays on the M5/M42/M40) because of the sheer awfulness of the Cotswold Line service.
b. That there is sufficient demand in Worcester to justify the cost of running super-express services for one of the smallest cities in the country. It is too far away for regular commuting to London, and small cities mean fewer people who need to travel.

Would the car parks at Pershore, Honeybourne and Hanborough be full if their service towards Oxford and London in the morning peaks was reduced to the following (based on September 12 timetable)? The car park at Evesham is full, so is not any kind of alternative for people in the Vale.

Pershore: 05.45, 07.05 (halts train to Oxford only)
Honeybourne: 05.35. 07.19 (assuming a call by the halts train were reinstated to make up for the lost London trains)
Hanborough: 6.16, 6.38 (actually the car park is so small it is full after these first two trains but oddly enough some people don't want to set off quite so early), 8.01 (halts)


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smokey
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« Reply #1482 on: September 03, 2011, 11:00:25 »

Being a bit cheeky, because I could work this out myself, but which Oxford to Worcester trains are worked by HSTs (High Speed Train) please,  Wink
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« Reply #1483 on: September 03, 2011, 11:09:29 »

Being a bit cheeky, because I could work this out myself, but which Oxford to Worcester trains are worked by HSTs (High Speed Train) please,  Wink

Not cheeky, just lazy!   Wink  The ones in here with a H at the top of the column:  http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/SEPT%202011%20TT/TT19_WEB_V1.pdf

A bid went in during the spring for money from the station enhancements fund to turn the Charlbury site compound on the allotments into permanent parking. A decision is thought to be imminent.

At Pershore efforts to achieve improvements have been frustrated for years because of the piecemeal way former railway land was disposed of around the station. A land swap with one of the adjacent businesses has pretty much been finalised now, which will create a rather more logical parcel of land for station parking and allow extra spaces.

Glad to hear these are both being progressed still, but I'm starting to grow tired of holding my breath...
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To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
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« Reply #1484 on: September 03, 2011, 11:12:10 »

Yeah Thanks:

I forgot that the download timetables show H for High Speed trains Cheesy
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