Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 15:15 28 Mar 2024
- Man held over stabbing in front of train passengers
- How do I renew my UK passport and what is the 10-year rule?
- Jet2 launches first flight from Liverpool airport
* Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
28th Mar (1988)
Formal end to carrying coffins by BR (link)

Train RunningCancelled
13:26 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington
13:28 Weymouth to Gloucester
15:10 Newquay to Par
15:14 Swindon to Westbury
15:16 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
15:30 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
16:04 Bristol Temple Meads to Filton Abbey Wood
16:51 Filton Abbey Wood to Bristol Temple Meads
17:04 Bristol Temple Meads to Filton Abbey Wood
17:51 Filton Abbey Wood to Bristol Temple Meads
17:54 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
17:57 London Paddington to Worcester Foregate Street
19:33 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill
20:56 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington
Short Run
11:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
11:48 London Paddington to Carmarthen
12:03 London Paddington to Penzance
13:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
13:10 Gloucester to Weymouth
14:05 Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads
15:10 Gloucester to Weymouth
15:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
15:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
16:19 Carmarthen to London Paddington
16:54 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
Delayed
10:04 London Paddington to Penzance
12:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
13:57 Exmouth to Paignton
14:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 28, 2024, 15:17:46 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[142] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[80] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[56] Return of the BRUTE?
[46] If not HS2 to Manchester, how will traffic be carried?
[43] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[34] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 24 25 [26] 27
  Print  
Author Topic: Christmas and Boxing Day trains - ongoing discussion  (Read 118275 times)
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18894



View Profile
« Reply #375 on: November 15, 2017, 14:17:14 »

I'm saddened that Boxing Day has become just another day for the British public to indulge in their obsession called consumerism.

For many, it's not about consumerism. It's about having the option of getting to/from family and friends without having to rely on the private car.

Yet again I also see we have the tired "Ooos gunna pay for it" argument. Same suspect trotting it out.  Roll Eyes

If TfL» (Transport for London - about), certain lines, certain bus operators, scheduled coach operators, can all provide a service on the 26th December without resorting to eye-watering peak fares then it cannot be beyond the ability of all TOCs (Train Operating Company) to do likewise.
Logged

"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

- Sir Terry Pratchett.
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10095


View Profile
« Reply #376 on: November 15, 2017, 15:10:42 »

I predict Crossrail will have a Boxing Day service within a couple of years.

I noted that Overground have no Boxing Day services, so I'm not so sure about that


Good to see that the new London Overground concession, awarded to Arriva today, has, amongst other things, a commitment to run Boxing Day services on some routes.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/london-overground-services-to-run-later-into-the-night-after-privatisation-deal-a3206456.html

From the horses mouth for 2017:

https://tfl.gov.uk/status-updates/major-works-and-events/boxing-day-2017

Quote
London Overground: No service

I’ll happily predict certain Overground routes will also have a Boxing Day service within a few years.

I can appreciate Broadgage’s centiments too, but I’m afraid that is not the direction opinion in the country is heading in.  The railway should be prepared to adapt to those changing opinions and priorities of the public - whether they suit it or not.
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #377 on: November 15, 2017, 15:12:27 »

I suspect that the economics of running boxing day services are now less favourable than a few decades ago.
There are many expenses in running a railway, but some of these are now more transparent than was the case years ago.

In say 1960, the extra costs of running trains on boxing day were probably confined to wages and fuel used by the trains, coal, diesel fuel and traction current.
It was a simple matter to compare these expenses with the fare revenue and decide that it was either profitable or not profitable but still worth it as a public service.
The trains were expensive to build but long lasting, and I very much doubt that anyone counted the cost of the slight extra wear and tear by use on boxing day. I cant imagine a director stating in 1960, "if we use this engine on boxing day, it will have to be scrapped on August 22, 1967. If we do not use it on boxing day it will last until August 23, 1967"

Likewise building and maintaining the track was expensive, but was not costed per day of use. I cant imagine a director in 1960 stating "if we run trains on boxing day, the annual cost of p-way maintenance will increase from £363,000 to £364,000"

So in 1960, the costs of using already existing and maintained track and rolling stock were in effect zero. The only extra costs were wages and traction fuel.

I doubt if fuel for non traction purposes was costed per day. Much more likely that "Outer worzelshire station costs about £200 a year to heat and light"  rather than "it will cost an extra £1 to heat and light it on boxing day"

These days costs are more directly attributable, track access costs a certain amount per mile per train, use of the train is also increasingly directly per mile. How much for an extra days use of an IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) ?
All this may or may not increase total costs, but it certainly discourages extra use of existing assets.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #378 on: November 15, 2017, 16:02:43 »

I would like to see some kind of service.  I don't think it needs to be fast or intensive use all the lines or all the stock or even run for the full day, but something that serves most stations and gets people were they want to go.
Logged
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #379 on: November 15, 2017, 16:03:53 »

I suspect that the economics of running boxing day services are now less favourable than a few decades ago.
There are many expenses in running a railway, but some of these are now more transparent than was the case years ago.

In say 1960, the extra costs of running trains on boxing day were probably confined to wages and fuel used by the trains, coal, diesel fuel and traction current.
It was a simple matter to compare these expenses with the fare revenue and decide that it was either profitable or not profitable but still worth it as a public service.
The trains were expensive to build but long lasting, and I very much doubt that anyone counted the cost of the slight extra wear and tear by use on boxing day. I cant imagine a director stating in 1960, "if we use this engine on boxing day, it will have to be scrapped on August 22, 1967. If we do not use it on boxing day it will last until August 23, 1967"

Likewise building and maintaining the track was expensive, but was not costed per day of use. I cant imagine a director in 1960 stating "if we run trains on boxing day, the annual cost of p-way maintenance will increase from £363,000 to £364,000"

So in 1960, the costs of using already existing and maintained track and rolling stock were in effect zero. The only extra costs were wages and traction fuel.

I doubt if fuel for non traction purposes was costed per day. Much more likely that "Outer worzelshire station costs about £200 a year to heat and light"  rather than "it will cost an extra £1 to heat and light it on boxing day"

These days costs are more directly attributable, track access costs a certain amount per mile per train, use of the train is also increasingly directly per mile. How much for an extra days use of an IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) ?
All this may or may not increase total costs, but it certainly discourages extra use of existing assets.
  The flip side of all this of course if that the ToCs have accountants who know exactly what it is costing to have their capital investment sitting idle for a day. 
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« Reply #380 on: November 15, 2017, 16:07:22 »

Probably contracted that way with Hitachi. God knows how much they'd want for their staff to work Christmas night to prep their IETs (Intercity Express Train) for Boxing Day
Logged
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10095


View Profile
« Reply #381 on: November 15, 2017, 19:55:45 »

I should imagine a few staff will be working at North Pole for Hitachi ensuring continuous coverage over Christmas anyway, just as do at Old Oak Common.
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
bobm
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 9809



View Profile
« Reply #382 on: November 15, 2017, 21:05:23 »

To be honest I would like to see the problems that voluntary working on a Sunday causes to the weekend schedule year round solved before we worry about Boxing Day.
Logged
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10095


View Profile
« Reply #383 on: November 15, 2017, 21:10:16 »

I quite agree, Bob.  Talks with drivers unions regarding exactly that are ongoing.
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #384 on: November 16, 2017, 07:50:31 »

In say 1960, the extra costs of running trains on boxing day were probably confined to wages and fuel used by the trains, coal, diesel fuel and traction current.

Plus all those signalmen along the way in those days, and having just about every station staffed in addition to the on-train staff of at least three (for steam trains).

Quote
The trains were expensive to build but long lasting, and I very much doubt that anyone counted the cost of the slight extra wear and tear by use on boxing day. I cant imagine a director stating in 1960, "if we use this engine on boxing day, it will have to be scrapped on August 22, 1967. If we do not use it on boxing day it will last until August 23, 1967"

I can appreciate extra maintenance costs ... but hadn't realised that if a 150 was used on Boxing Day it would have to be withdrawn from active service a day earlier.  I understood that certain trains (such as the HSTs (High Speed Train)) had in fact already been in service a little longer than was initially planned.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #385 on: November 16, 2017, 11:03:03 »

To be honest I would like to see the problems that voluntary working on a Sunday causes to the weekend schedule year round solved before we worry about Boxing Day.

A very good point.  I'd also like to see the new fleet introduced and the electrification finished first, but I do think that the time for a boxing day service is coming soon.  The number of young people living in cities and without cars (who are just the demographic who spend Christmas holidays travelling between home and parents and boy/girlfriends parents)  is increasing.
Logged
TonyK
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6435


The artist formerly known as Four Track, Now!


View Profile
« Reply #386 on: November 20, 2017, 20:00:39 »

But suppose a service between, say Paddington and Bristol via Bath, calling at all major and a few minor stations, is introduced, running every 2 hours each way. The news stories would quickly change from "No trains" to "Not enough trains!" You wouldn't please everyone by a long chalk. Plus it would probably have to be bustituted at least part of the way because of engineering works, and that is where I think the nub of the problem is. It would probably not be hard to get some drivers working on Boxing Day by the simple expedient of waving a large wad of cash under their noses (worked for me for a few years), but you would have to do the same for Plan B. Would it be worth it?
Logged

Now, please!
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« Reply #387 on: November 20, 2017, 20:11:19 »

The news stories would quickly change from "No trains" to "Not enough trains!"

And there in lies the rub - Almost need a peak service in the afternoon, certainly where the 27th was a workday. While pax would expect the cheapest fare on offer as its a public holiday & holidays are cheap to travel generally. Income wouldn't cover the outlays needed to run it.
Logged
Tim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2738


View Profile
« Reply #388 on: November 21, 2017, 10:03:41 »

The news stories would quickly change from "No trains" to "Not enough trains!"

And there in lies the rub - Almost need a peak service in the afternoon, certainly where the 27th was a workday. While pax would expect the cheapest fare on offer as its a public holiday & holidays are cheap to travel generally. Income wouldn't cover the outlays needed to run it.

I get that completely, but I do think that they could start with a tentative service at least.  Getting capacity and price right for a new service always requires some experimenting.
Logged
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10095


View Profile
« Reply #389 on: November 21, 2017, 11:38:35 »

Indeed, Tim.  Start off small, the DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) routes from Paddington to Reading/Oxford/Newbury and Reading to Gatwick along with Thames Valley branches.  Then perhaps try extending to Bristol, Cardiff and maybe Plymouth.

You won’t find out what demand there is unless you try it.  I don’t think it will be as large as ChrisB thinks, and it will help dampen down the horrendous scenes we often see on the 27th.  Most important of all though is to wait until Crossrail and electrification works are complete so there are unlikely to be any major engineering possessions.  All ties in quite nicely to include the next franchise ITT (Invitation to Tender) if you ask me!
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 ... 24 25 [26] 27
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page